5 ms·

The US has the tech companies MASSIVE wealth to stop this. It is all well and good to subsidize local tech companies, but for a majority of junior/senior devs y

The US has the tech companies MASSIVE wealth to stop this. It is all well and good to subsidize local tech companies, but for a majority of junior/senior devs you can't compete with $250K/yr in pay from FAANG companies whose stock won't stop rising and whose name on resume basically sets you up for life (exaggerating, but its not that far from the truth for a non-US and even US developers) Your third point doesn't make any sense to me as no country will restrict their own citizens from working for a foreign company...earning massively higher salaries than local jobs (more money earned locally is more money spent locally... all metrics that nations care about will go up). Monopolizing your citizen's attention != monopolizing their talent. Every company you just mentioned added up doesn't even equal or come close to Google's market capitalization (Atlassian, 150B, Spotify, 55B, TSM, 550B, ASML 350B, JetBrains, private, but some say 7B?, Epic Games, 30B) and of note, TSM and ASML draw much of their valuation from hardware than software.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>no country will restrict their own citizens from working for a foreign company This might surprise you, but some countries manage to achieve something like that. In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such. So yeah, turns out high taxes are a pretty strong deterrent.
- oblio 5y ago
  > In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such. This is the case everywhere in Europe. I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >This is the case everywhere in Europe. It definitely isn't. In most of Eastern Europe, freelancers pay peanuts in taxes in order to attract foreign investment. Which is why there tech sectors boomed so much in the last couple of decades to the point devs in Poland or Romania can take home more than their counterparts from richer countries like Austria. Granted, they also get no benefits, but when you take home several times the average national pay, you can actually afford to buy a decent house and maybe fund your own early retirement if you're good at investments. >I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited. I think it's a bit of both. Trying to force your local talent who's education was taxpayer funded to only work for and support local business, instead of helping build another nation's champions (remote brain drain). A short sighted move in my opinion which just suppress wages and produces no local champions thanks to shit wages and a lack of opportunities.
    - oblio 5y ago
      In Romania freelancers pay slightly fewer taxes but regular employees pay no income tax if their profile and the company profile match some rather easy to meet conditions. I don't know about Poland.
- laurencerowe 5y ago
  Is more tax really being paid or is it simply that freelancers become responsible for paying employer payroll taxes? In the US both employees and employers pay social security contributions. Going freelance here means you must pay both of these, double the amount an employee would see withheld from their paycheck. But it's not an extra tax. The government is still getting the same amount of money in total. As a freelancer you need to set your rates appropriately to account for the payroll tax, PTO, etc. that would be paid if you were an FTE.
- jq-r 5y ago
  Something similar in Croatia too. Some years ago they've introduced freelancer laws and pretty much everyone in this industry who was paid by foreign firms was using this. But relatively recently the government changed their minds and said that if more than 50% of your income comes from a single employer then you're not a freelancer, and these laws don't apply. So the option is to take a 60%+ tax on your income or find a job with a local company which then works for a foreign company. In latter case, they are nothing more than a middleman taking a smaller (but not much smaller) cut than the government while providing you with next to nothing. So it doesn't make much time to figure out who lobbied for reversal of those freelancer laws.
gonehome 5y ago
Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. Their tax structure isn't great either, there's a reason zero billion dollar companies were founded in Europe (with the possible exception of Spotify). There's also the cultural pessimism and ambition being 'uncool' - there's a similar thing in Australia/New Zealand (at least I've heard from immigrant friends that moved from there). The 'tallest poppy gets chopped down' basically the opposite of the American idiom 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'. Even outside of Europe places like Toronto don't operate with the right investment mindset to actually create wealth: https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene-doesnt-work/ https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene... American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is. Devon is basically making this point, but the title is confusing. It's not the US companies that will lose the monopoly on talent, it's the US geography. The US companies will increase their monopoly.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. It's something that I observed as well. > American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is. Don't forget that companies who may have been hesitant to sponsor a visa for an unknown dev might be a lot more willing after having him work for a year or two remotely. And this remote employment also opens the possibility of different visas (L1 comes to mind). I actually think we might see a larger drain to the US in the medium term. And I'm all in for that, if Europe wants to pay to educate engineers then waste their talent not valuing them, send them here!
  - marcyb5st 5y ago
    I'm from Italy but working in Switzerland for a FAANG company. My theory about the management-heavy way to do things in Europe is the following: in Europe is hard to fire someone unless there is a clear and willingly negligence from his/her part. Engineers' output is somewhat easier to measure than "fluffy" (pardon my lack of better words) tasks performed by management and hence it's hard to prove a manager is doing nothing. Therefore, people tend to gravitate to these positions because they almost certainly guarantee job safety. In my personal experience this happens disproportionately much in countries where worker unions have more sway (like France, Italy, and Germany). Also in my opinion it's not a coincidence that such countries create companies that are bureaucratic behemoths in which there are several different committees to take every small decision. That's how management justify its existence. This is the main reason that pushed me to go to Switzerland to work for an American company. I feel this is the sweet spot when considering worker rights, salary/purchasing power, interesting work without too much bureaucracy, quality of life, and work-life balance.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

>no country will restrict their own citizens from working for a foreign company This might surprise you, but some countries manage to achieve something like that. In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such. So yeah, turns out high taxes are a pretty strong deterrent.

oblio 5y ago
> In Austria for example, if you go freelance (self employed) you'll actually end up paying more tax than being a FTE (which has already one of this highest taxes in the EU) while losing all the benefits of being a FTE like PTO, overtime and such. This is the case everywhere in Europe. I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >This is the case everywhere in Europe. It definitely isn't. In most of Eastern Europe, freelancers pay peanuts in taxes in order to attract foreign investment. Which is why there tech sectors boomed so much in the last couple of decades to the point devs in Poland or Romania can take home more than their counterparts from richer countries like Austria. Granted, they also get no benefits, but when you take home several times the average national pay, you can actually afford to buy a decent house and maybe fund your own early retirement if you're good at investments. >I don't know if it's a literal policy meant to discourage this or it's just that freelancers are easy political targets since they tend to be disorganized/disunited. I think it's a bit of both. Trying to force your local talent who's education was taxpayer funded to only work for and support local business, instead of helping build another nation's champions (remote brain drain). A short sighted move in my opinion which just suppress wages and produces no local champions thanks to shit wages and a lack of opportunities.
  - oblio 5y ago
    In Romania freelancers pay slightly fewer taxes but regular employees pay no income tax if their profile and the company profile match some rather easy to meet conditions. I don't know about Poland.
laurencerowe 5y ago
Is more tax really being paid or is it simply that freelancers become responsible for paying employer payroll taxes? In the US both employees and employers pay social security contributions. Going freelance here means you must pay both of these, double the amount an employee would see withheld from their paycheck. But it's not an extra tax. The government is still getting the same amount of money in total. As a freelancer you need to set your rates appropriately to account for the payroll tax, PTO, etc. that would be paid if you were an FTE.
jq-r 5y ago
Something similar in Croatia too. Some years ago they've introduced freelancer laws and pretty much everyone in this industry who was paid by foreign firms was using this. But relatively recently the government changed their minds and said that if more than 50% of your income comes from a single employer then you're not a freelancer, and these laws don't apply. So the option is to take a 60%+ tax on your income or find a job with a local company which then works for a foreign company. In latter case, they are nothing more than a middleman taking a smaller (but not much smaller) cut than the government while providing you with next to nothing. So it doesn't make much time to figure out who lobbied for reversal of those freelancer laws.

gonehome 5y ago

Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. Their tax structure isn't great either, there's a reason zero billion dollar companies were founded in Europe (with the possible exception of Spotify). There's also the cultural pessimism and ambition being 'uncool' - there's a similar thing in Australia/New Zealand (at least I've heard from immigrant friends that moved from there). The 'tallest poppy gets chopped down' basically the opposite of the American idiom 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'. Even outside of Europe places like Toronto don't operate with the right investment mindset to actually create wealth: https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene-doesnt-work/ https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene... American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is. Devon is basically making this point, but the title is confusing. It's not the US companies that will lose the monopoly on talent, it's the US geography. The US companies will increase their monopoly.

908B64B197 5y ago
> Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. It's something that I observed as well. > American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is. Don't forget that companies who may have been hesitant to sponsor a visa for an unknown dev might be a lot more willing after having him work for a year or two remotely. And this remote employment also opens the possibility of different visas (L1 comes to mind). I actually think we might see a larger drain to the US in the medium term. And I'm all in for that, if Europe wants to pay to educate engineers then waste their talent not valuing them, send them here!
- marcyb5st 5y ago
  I'm from Italy but working in Switzerland for a FAANG company. My theory about the management-heavy way to do things in Europe is the following: in Europe is hard to fire someone unless there is a clear and willingly negligence from his/her part. Engineers' output is somewhat easier to measure than "fluffy" (pardon my lack of better words) tasks performed by management and hence it's hard to prove a manager is doing nothing. Therefore, people tend to gravitate to these positions because they almost certainly guarantee job safety. In my personal experience this happens disproportionately much in countries where worker unions have more sway (like France, Italy, and Germany). Also in my opinion it's not a coincidence that such countries create companies that are bureaucratic behemoths in which there are several different committees to take every small decision. That's how management justify its existence. This is the main reason that pushed me to go to Switzerland to work for an American company. I feel this is the sweet spot when considering worker rights, salary/purchasing power, interesting work without too much bureaucracy, quality of life, and work-life balance.