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It doesn't take a PhD to know this conclusion is total bullshit. I know long covid sufferers personally--one, a former marathon runner, has spent months unable

It doesn't take a PhD to know this conclusion is total bullshit. I know long covid sufferers personally--one, a former marathon runner, has spent months unable to go up a single flight of stairs without crushing fatigue. I don't doubt that there is a psychological component to long-covid, but to suggest the entire ailment is some cousin of anxiety is dismissive, insulting, and most importantly, plain wrong. There's a large contingent of HN readers that seem to think long covid doesn't exist because it hasn't been firmly confirmed by a study. To be more accurate, they would prefer it didn't exist because its existence would justify some of the stricter covid restrictions. I imagine these are the same people that would let their Tesla drive them into a wall because the camera didn't see it there. Not proven to exist != proven not to exist. If it hasn't been proven to exist, then we'll need to do better science until we find it, because it definitely exists without any measure of doubt. And by the way, this is the exact same nonsense that has quagmired ME/CFS research for decades. The government requires that diseases have a biomarker in order to claim disability--the lack of a biomarker for this illness doesn't meant that it doesn't exist, but it has meant that research on it has been tragically and dramatically underfunded and sufferers struggle to claim disability benefits.

Pyramus 5y ago
Came here to say something very similar. There is a very good podcast in Germany that involves two of the country's leading virologists [1]. In a recent episode they reviewed the current literature on long Covid. One of the key take-aways was that it's likely not a single disease but a combination of several distinct components. E.g. there is a component that's related to lung damage, one related to fatigue and exhaustion, there's a neurological component related to loss of taste etc. - it's very much work in progress what these components are and how to best treat them. [1] https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/podcast4684.html https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/podcast4684.html
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  That's not a scientific answer. Physical symptoms of stress include: Low energy Headaches Upset stomach, including diarrhea, constipation, and nausea Aches, pains, and tense muscles Chest pain and rapid heartbeat Insomnia Frequent colds and infections Loss of sexual desire and/or ability Nervousness and shaking, ringing in the ear, cold or sweaty hands and feet Dry mouth and difficulty swallowing Clenched jaw and grinding teeth Sounds like all of the physical symptoms of so-called long-COVID. On top of the stress that would undoubtedly afflict a significant fraction of COVID patients, due to the massively inflated fears surrounding COVID, is the effects of physical isolation. One of the requirements for all COVID positive cases is two weeks of total physical isolation. Numerous studies have shown that humans being physically isolated has significant negative health effects. No in person contact. No physical touch. For two weeks. All COVID positive cases, even asymptomatic ones. There are no randomized studies, that control for factors, like the aforementioned psychological distress emanating from fear of COVID, and physical isolation, that suggests COVID causes these long-term symptoms. There are a host of potential confounding factors that could explain these correlations better than damage from the COVID infection. Notice how extreme rigor is demanded for the ivermectin studies but then really just mere correlations is enough to draw scare mongering conclusions about COVID.
  - Pyramus 5y ago
    > Sounds like all of the physical symptoms of so-called long-COVID. I don't understand - are you saying lung damage and neurological issues like loss of taste are not distinct factors of long Covid? Or did you come to the realisation that psychological stress often manifests in physiological symptoms? Are you even saying that there is not such a clear distinction between psychological and physiological diseases? > There are no randomized studies, that control for factors, like the aforementioned psychological distress [...] here are a host of potential confounding factors [...] It sounds like you are seriously underestimating medical research and researchers/scientists. > Notice how extreme rigor is demanded ivermectin studies [...] scare mongering conclusions [...] I'm even more confused - who is demanding and scare mongering?
    - CryptoPunk 5y ago
      Lung damage is certainly a symptom of some COVID cases, but a significant fraction of "long-COVID" 'abnormal breathing' symptoms may be related to anxiety. The same applies to psychological symptoms, like anxiety itself, which is the most commonly reported 'long-COVID' symptom. >>It sounds like you are seriously underestimating medical research and researchers/scientists. In what sense?
      - theGeatZhopa 5y ago
        Every damage to the lung coming in shape of an infection produces fibrous material within the soft and spongy lungs. This minimize the volume of the "sponge" lung and in the end reduces the ability to do that gas exchange. Also, it seems COVID is not a respiratory disease but Rather a blood vessel disease. Your lungs have a lot of capillary blood vessels that, when get attacked by spike of the virus just get thrombosed out of the system by our defense. The bloods gas/exchange stops functioning properly. That damage sometimes never reverts. That's why the people can't breathe properly after infection. And that causes stress. Not the other way around. Also if one have been in needed for artificial rebreathening, alone that, blowing in pressurized air into lungs of exactly 1 bar or something, is a damage by itself. So that's why people can't breathe persistently for a long time. It's not psychology :) it's damage and scars everywhere in the substance.
CryptoPunk 5y ago
You cannot rely on anecdotes. I know people who claim that many of their relatives suffered severe adverse effects after taking the vaccine. We do not draw scientific conclusions from anecdotes. >>then we'll need to do better science until we find it, because it definitely exists without any measure of doubt. Nothing "definitely exists" when no compelling evidence for it has been found. This is exactly the kind of Dunning-Kruger certainly that anti-vaxxers exhibit.
- Invictus0 5y ago
  Amazing to think how, before science existed, the universe was completely empty!
rsj_hn 5y ago
> I know long covid sufferers personally The problem here is that covid is a respiratory disease, and as with any other serious respiratory disease, there can be a whole host of consequences that are long lasting. Everything from brain damage, lung damage, and that will then affect pretty much every other system in your body. And then ontop of that you have a full blown viral outbreak, which can damage pretty much any organ. What we know only scratches the surface. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2082798/#:~:text=The%20most%20severe%20form%20of,%2C%20and%20cerebellar%20medulla%2C%20occurs https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2082798/#:~:tex... https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/acute-necrotizing-encephalopathy-type-1/ https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/acute-necrotizing... But we do not call someone struggling with the results of acute cute necrotizing encephalopathy as a "long flu" sufferer, as if this meant their flu infection was never cured. Just like we do not call it "long pneumonia" when someone discovers that damage to their lungs has caused a whole host of permanent ailments, from difficulty climbing stairs, to dizziness and short term memory loss, or even weakness, loss of muscle mass, joint pains. Nor we do not say "long oil-burn" when a failure to replace burnt oil causes long term damage to your car. As long as this keeps being framed as some special form of long lasting covid infection, rather than damage caused by covid, you are going to run into all sorts of problems with people who point out that no covid can be detected in the person, and so there isn't any scientific basis for the long covid theory.
- Invictus0 5y ago
  It's a valid point, and there have been efforts to unite long covid and post viral fatigue as a common illness. I don't make the rules on this, but until there is consensus that they are one and the same, we just have to use the words we have to refer to the things they currently mean. No one would have any clue what you're talking about if you start calling long covid "acute necrotizing encephalopathy".
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    I don't think it's just one thing. I wouldn't be surprised if almost every organ can be damaged somehow as a result of most kinds of viral outbreaks, so to make progress, it might be better to look at the specific clusters of symptoms and call each of them by their own name and study them independently of what caused them, as I doubt the therapeutics, if we find any, will have anything to do with whether it was covid or something else that caused the damage. Of course I could be completely wrong, and perhaps covid does create a unique set of complications.

Pyramus 5y ago

Came here to say something very similar. There is a very good podcast in Germany that involves two of the country's leading virologists [1]. In a recent episode they reviewed the current literature on long Covid. One of the key take-aways was that it's likely not a single disease but a combination of several distinct components. E.g. there is a component that's related to lung damage, one related to fatigue and exhaustion, there's a neurological component related to loss of taste etc. - it's very much work in progress what these components are and how to best treat them. [1] https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/podcast4684.html https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/info/podcast4684.html

CryptoPunk 5y ago
That's not a scientific answer. Physical symptoms of stress include: Low energy Headaches Upset stomach, including diarrhea, constipation, and nausea Aches, pains, and tense muscles Chest pain and rapid heartbeat Insomnia Frequent colds and infections Loss of sexual desire and/or ability Nervousness and shaking, ringing in the ear, cold or sweaty hands and feet Dry mouth and difficulty swallowing Clenched jaw and grinding teeth Sounds like all of the physical symptoms of so-called long-COVID. On top of the stress that would undoubtedly afflict a significant fraction of COVID patients, due to the massively inflated fears surrounding COVID, is the effects of physical isolation. One of the requirements for all COVID positive cases is two weeks of total physical isolation. Numerous studies have shown that humans being physically isolated has significant negative health effects. No in person contact. No physical touch. For two weeks. All COVID positive cases, even asymptomatic ones. There are no randomized studies, that control for factors, like the aforementioned psychological distress emanating from fear of COVID, and physical isolation, that suggests COVID causes these long-term symptoms. There are a host of potential confounding factors that could explain these correlations better than damage from the COVID infection. Notice how extreme rigor is demanded for the ivermectin studies but then really just mere correlations is enough to draw scare mongering conclusions about COVID.
- Pyramus 5y ago
  > Sounds like all of the physical symptoms of so-called long-COVID. I don't understand - are you saying lung damage and neurological issues like loss of taste are not distinct factors of long Covid? Or did you come to the realisation that psychological stress often manifests in physiological symptoms? Are you even saying that there is not such a clear distinction between psychological and physiological diseases? > There are no randomized studies, that control for factors, like the aforementioned psychological distress [...] here are a host of potential confounding factors [...] It sounds like you are seriously underestimating medical research and researchers/scientists. > Notice how extreme rigor is demanded ivermectin studies [...] scare mongering conclusions [...] I'm even more confused - who is demanding and scare mongering?
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    Lung damage is certainly a symptom of some COVID cases, but a significant fraction of "long-COVID" 'abnormal breathing' symptoms may be related to anxiety. The same applies to psychological symptoms, like anxiety itself, which is the most commonly reported 'long-COVID' symptom. >>It sounds like you are seriously underestimating medical research and researchers/scientists. In what sense?
    - theGeatZhopa 5y ago
      Every damage to the lung coming in shape of an infection produces fibrous material within the soft and spongy lungs. This minimize the volume of the "sponge" lung and in the end reduces the ability to do that gas exchange. Also, it seems COVID is not a respiratory disease but Rather a blood vessel disease. Your lungs have a lot of capillary blood vessels that, when get attacked by spike of the virus just get thrombosed out of the system by our defense. The bloods gas/exchange stops functioning properly. That damage sometimes never reverts. That's why the people can't breathe properly after infection. And that causes stress. Not the other way around. Also if one have been in needed for artificial rebreathening, alone that, blowing in pressurized air into lungs of exactly 1 bar or something, is a damage by itself. So that's why people can't breathe persistently for a long time. It's not psychology :) it's damage and scars everywhere in the substance.

CryptoPunk 5y ago

You cannot rely on anecdotes. I know people who claim that many of their relatives suffered severe adverse effects after taking the vaccine. We do not draw scientific conclusions from anecdotes. >>then we'll need to do better science until we find it, because it definitely exists without any measure of doubt. Nothing "definitely exists" when no compelling evidence for it has been found. This is exactly the kind of Dunning-Kruger certainly that anti-vaxxers exhibit.

Invictus0 5y ago
Amazing to think how, before science existed, the universe was completely empty!

rsj_hn 5y ago

> I know long covid sufferers personally The problem here is that covid is a respiratory disease, and as with any other serious respiratory disease, there can be a whole host of consequences that are long lasting. Everything from brain damage, lung damage, and that will then affect pretty much every other system in your body. And then ontop of that you have a full blown viral outbreak, which can damage pretty much any organ. What we know only scratches the surface. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2082798/#:~:text=The%20most%20severe%20form%20of,%2C%20and%20cerebellar%20medulla%2C%20occurs https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2082798/#:~:tex... https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/acute-necrotizing-encephalopathy-type-1/ https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/acute-necrotizing... But we do not call someone struggling with the results of acute cute necrotizing encephalopathy as a "long flu" sufferer, as if this meant their flu infection was never cured. Just like we do not call it "long pneumonia" when someone discovers that damage to their lungs has caused a whole host of permanent ailments, from difficulty climbing stairs, to dizziness and short term memory loss, or even weakness, loss of muscle mass, joint pains. Nor we do not say "long oil-burn" when a failure to replace burnt oil causes long term damage to your car. As long as this keeps being framed as some special form of long lasting covid infection, rather than damage caused by covid, you are going to run into all sorts of problems with people who point out that no covid can be detected in the person, and so there isn't any scientific basis for the long covid theory.

Invictus0 5y ago
It's a valid point, and there have been efforts to unite long covid and post viral fatigue as a common illness. I don't make the rules on this, but until there is consensus that they are one and the same, we just have to use the words we have to refer to the things they currently mean. No one would have any clue what you're talking about if you start calling long covid "acute necrotizing encephalopathy".
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  I don't think it's just one thing. I wouldn't be surprised if almost every organ can be damaged somehow as a result of most kinds of viral outbreaks, so to make progress, it might be better to look at the specific clusters of symptoms and call each of them by their own name and study them independently of what caused them, as I doubt the therapeutics, if we find any, will have anything to do with whether it was covid or something else that caused the damage. Of course I could be completely wrong, and perhaps covid does create a unique set of complications.