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USA is super expensive. Yes you can get a large paycheck, wait until you see house prices. Also current situation does not inspire confidence in somebody who m

USA is super expensive. Yes you can get a large paycheck, wait until you see house prices. Also current situation does not inspire confidence in somebody who may be identified as white male.

saiya-jin 5y ago
If you want to be located in a place which pays relatively high in Europe, housing prices are adequate. 10-15 years ago it would be possible to have disproportionally large salary in eastern places like Prague, but that's history now. Even if it still costs less than SF, your paycheck now looks adequate. Covid era raised prices everywhere.
- thriftwy 5y ago
  It's possible to work remotely in post-covid era, which allows living in nicer, cheaper locales. No longer it is necessary to move where jobs are.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    If you have family, this becomes more complex. If your kids are older have already good friends and social circles, such a move becomes supremely selfish
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      What if you already live in a cheaper, less bubbly area? Or decide to move there early on. Then staying there and working remotely becomes family friendly, and moving becomes super selfish. Most people assume moving to get a good job, which will lead exactly to the consequences above.
- oblio 5y ago
  > 10-15 years ago it would be possible to have disproportionally large salary in eastern places like Prague, but that's history now. It still happens but you need to go further East, like Romania, for example. But Romania is far more disorganized compared to Czechia, so there are downsides.
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
It's really expensive, yes. But honestly, another significant part of it is that the way of life of some americans is crazy. I'm considered a spender among my peers, and even I am amazed when I discuss with american friends, watching the money they throw away. Most of them have huge food budget: they never cook and eat outside all the time. They have so many recurring payments for so many services. They spend tons money to refund a student load for a degree they never finished, or a mortage on a car or credit cards fees. Cigarets, alcohol, weed, then various kinds of meds. Some of them have several generations of console, one PC, and changed their phone every 2 years for the last decade. When I visited the USA with my father (he worked for an airline), we always ended the trip with flipping through garbages in nice neighbourhoods. Once we found a printer. Another time we found a tennis racket. So when they tell me they are having a hard time with money, it's not easy to be compassionate. I know there are people working 3 jobs, living paycheck to paycheck and eating junk food to survive. But they are not coders in the valley.
standardUser 5y ago
White males are one of the highest paid demographic groups in the US and always have been.
- postsantum 5y ago
  It seems white americans are far behind many asian ethnic groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    That's because US immigration policy selects for immigrants with significant wealth or specialized educations and experience. Our policy specifically selects for high earners and the already wealthy. You can see this effect clearly from your own source, where Australian Americans and South African Americans both have higher median incomes than almost all Asian American households, as well as white Americans. Same thing goes for Pakistani, Iranian, Lebonese and Austrian Americans compared to other groups in the US.
    - postsantum 5y ago
      Yes, I understand that might be a factor. However, this still invalidates the point that whites are the most privileged group. If we take second/third-generation indians, they, on average, would be wealthier than most whites. Does this mean they are more privileged? I think yes
      - standardUser 5y ago
        "However, this still invalidates the point that whites are the most privileged group." No one made that point. And yes, it's true, if you look at certain much smaller demographic groups you can find groups that are somewhat more economically advantaged than white men.
        5y ago
xyzzyz 5y ago
House prices are often even higher in Europe, relative to wages. Check prices in London or Paris to see: you get smaller apartments, smaller houses on smaller lots than in US, and you’ll pay larger percentage of your paycheck for them.
- downut 5y ago
  I looked into Paris and the 19th looks very reasonably priced and apex civilized to me. (I've walked all over it.) A two bedroom for say €2000-2500/m with easy access to the Metro. Am I wrong? I was surprised when I looked at the prices, maybe my sources are inaccurate. But then I discovered Montpellier :-), half as expensive. I've lived in Atlanta, Phoenix and SF/MV/Santa Clara, and no, none of those come close to the quality of life for the money. For reference I live in a 2300ft^2 house in the country, and it was great for raising a family, but now I'd rather rejoin civilization. So I'm aware of the tradeoffs.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    Average household income in Paris is 36k EUR. 2000-2500 EUR/mo is insanely expensive. For comparison, in Sunnyvale, CA, median rent for 2 bedroom is $3k, but median household income is $130k. Seriously, if you think housing is expensive relative to incomes in Bay Area, or NYC, it will seem like a bargain compared to London or Paris.
    - downut 5y ago
      Why would I work for 36k? This discussion is about remote work. I'm not worried about making 3x that. As I mentioned, I've lived in Mountain View and Santa Clara. Sunnyvale is in the middle. I'm a cyclist and loved to climb up the various two lane grades and over the top to the coast and back. I visited MV and San Jose last spring. And SF. It was much more interesting in the '90s. Now the South Bay is just another dead US suburb. I wouldn't live there again for $500k/year. We haven't even discussed why most families move to the suburbs: children. We have done the two commute raising a child in the Bay Area. We evacuated when the school logistics became visible, and in hindsight, rightly so.
bsagdiyev 5y ago
House prices where? We got our house for 345k and I earn 100k+ in North Carolina. Not everyone needs to live in California.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  And you call that cheap?
  - oblio 5y ago
    A house at about 3.5 the yearly income is cheap, yes. Historically it was quite a bit more. https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/ https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-inco...
  - bsagdiyev 5y ago
    In fact I do, it isn’t the 700k or more we expected to pay in California. We could have gone even cheaper if we waited.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sophacles 5y ago
Imagine being so bad at your chosen career, a career so in demand that there are serious efforts to expand the talent pool to a wider variety of people, that you are afraid that those efforts will cost you your job.
- RNCTX 5y ago
  Imagine being so ignorant of history that you think the (tulip hysteria, dotcom boom, condo craze, etc) will continue unabated into the unforeseeable future.

USA is super expensive. Yes you can get a large paycheck, wait until you see house prices. Also current situation does not inspire confidence in somebody who may be identified as white male.

saiya-jin 5y ago

If you want to be located in a place which pays relatively high in Europe, housing prices are adequate. 10-15 years ago it would be possible to have disproportionally large salary in eastern places like Prague, but that's history now. Even if it still costs less than SF, your paycheck now looks adequate. Covid era raised prices everywhere.

thriftwy 5y ago
It's possible to work remotely in post-covid era, which allows living in nicer, cheaper locales. No longer it is necessary to move where jobs are.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  If you have family, this becomes more complex. If your kids are older have already good friends and social circles, such a move becomes supremely selfish
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    What if you already live in a cheaper, less bubbly area? Or decide to move there early on. Then staying there and working remotely becomes family friendly, and moving becomes super selfish. Most people assume moving to get a good job, which will lead exactly to the consequences above.
oblio 5y ago
> 10-15 years ago it would be possible to have disproportionally large salary in eastern places like Prague, but that's history now. It still happens but you need to go further East, like Romania, for example. But Romania is far more disorganized compared to Czechia, so there are downsides.

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

It's really expensive, yes. But honestly, another significant part of it is that the way of life of some americans is crazy. I'm considered a spender among my peers, and even I am amazed when I discuss with american friends, watching the money they throw away. Most of them have huge food budget: they never cook and eat outside all the time. They have so many recurring payments for so many services. They spend tons money to refund a student load for a degree they never finished, or a mortage on a car or credit cards fees. Cigarets, alcohol, weed, then various kinds of meds. Some of them have several generations of console, one PC, and changed their phone every 2 years for the last decade. When I visited the USA with my father (he worked for an airline), we always ended the trip with flipping through garbages in nice neighbourhoods. Once we found a printer. Another time we found a tennis racket. So when they tell me they are having a hard time with money, it's not easy to be compassionate. I know there are people working 3 jobs, living paycheck to paycheck and eating junk food to survive. But they are not coders in the valley.

standardUser 5y ago

White males are one of the highest paid demographic groups in the US and always have been.

postsantum 5y ago
It seems white americans are far behind many asian ethnic groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  That's because US immigration policy selects for immigrants with significant wealth or specialized educations and experience. Our policy specifically selects for high earners and the already wealthy. You can see this effect clearly from your own source, where Australian Americans and South African Americans both have higher median incomes than almost all Asian American households, as well as white Americans. Same thing goes for Pakistani, Iranian, Lebonese and Austrian Americans compared to other groups in the US.
  - postsantum 5y ago
    Yes, I understand that might be a factor. However, this still invalidates the point that whites are the most privileged group. If we take second/third-generation indians, they, on average, would be wealthier than most whites. Does this mean they are more privileged? I think yes
    - standardUser 5y ago
      "However, this still invalidates the point that whites are the most privileged group." No one made that point. And yes, it's true, if you look at certain much smaller demographic groups you can find groups that are somewhat more economically advantaged than white men.
      - 5y ago

xyzzyz 5y ago

House prices are often even higher in Europe, relative to wages. Check prices in London or Paris to see: you get smaller apartments, smaller houses on smaller lots than in US, and you’ll pay larger percentage of your paycheck for them.

downut 5y ago
I looked into Paris and the 19th looks very reasonably priced and apex civilized to me. (I've walked all over it.) A two bedroom for say €2000-2500/m with easy access to the Metro. Am I wrong? I was surprised when I looked at the prices, maybe my sources are inaccurate. But then I discovered Montpellier :-), half as expensive. I've lived in Atlanta, Phoenix and SF/MV/Santa Clara, and no, none of those come close to the quality of life for the money. For reference I live in a 2300ft^2 house in the country, and it was great for raising a family, but now I'd rather rejoin civilization. So I'm aware of the tradeoffs.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Average household income in Paris is 36k EUR. 2000-2500 EUR/mo is insanely expensive. For comparison, in Sunnyvale, CA, median rent for 2 bedroom is $3k, but median household income is $130k. Seriously, if you think housing is expensive relative to incomes in Bay Area, or NYC, it will seem like a bargain compared to London or Paris.
  - downut 5y ago
    Why would I work for 36k? This discussion is about remote work. I'm not worried about making 3x that. As I mentioned, I've lived in Mountain View and Santa Clara. Sunnyvale is in the middle. I'm a cyclist and loved to climb up the various two lane grades and over the top to the coast and back. I visited MV and San Jose last spring. And SF. It was much more interesting in the '90s. Now the South Bay is just another dead US suburb. I wouldn't live there again for $500k/year. We haven't even discussed why most families move to the suburbs: children. We have done the two commute raising a child in the Bay Area. We evacuated when the school logistics became visible, and in hindsight, rightly so.

bsagdiyev 5y ago

House prices where? We got our house for 345k and I earn 100k+ in North Carolina. Not everyone needs to live in California.

goodpoint 5y ago
And you call that cheap?
- oblio 5y ago
  A house at about 3.5 the yearly income is cheap, yes. Historically it was quite a bit more. https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/ https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-inco...
- bsagdiyev 5y ago
  In fact I do, it isn’t the 700k or more we expected to pay in California. We could have gone even cheaper if we waited.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sophacles 5y ago

Imagine being so bad at your chosen career, a career so in demand that there are serious efforts to expand the talent pool to a wider variety of people, that you are afraid that those efforts will cost you your job.

RNCTX 5y ago
Imagine being so ignorant of history that you think the (tulip hysteria, dotcom boom, condo craze, etc) will continue unabated into the unforeseeable future.