13 ms·

> "the west" is effectively building their own version of China's social credit. China's social credit system allegedly assigns (or will assign?) all citizens

> "the west" is effectively building their own version of China's social credit. China's social credit system allegedly assigns (or will assign?) all citizens scores and punishes them for social wrongdoings. The IRS has always been tasked with auditing and catching tax cheats, the Treasury always went after people who violate economic sanctions. What's the similarity other than data collection?

travoc 5y ago
Why do you need more similarities? The mass data collection completes the system.
- kelnos 5y ago
  Because we need to understand the purpose of the data collection and what bad things might happen because of it. If Treasury is using this data to catch people who violate economic sanctions, ok. If the IRS is using this data to catch people who cheat on their taxes, ok. I don't love either of those things, but they are using the data only to do things that have been defined as their job to do for a long time now. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that any of this data is going to be used to penalize people financially/economically for "social infractions", or to penalize people in unrelated ways (like, you missed payments on your credit card so you aren't allowed to ride on a train). If there was, then sure, that's cause for worry.
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
    >> There doesn't seem to be any evidence that any of this data is going to be used to penalize people financially/economically for "social infractions" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy
    - kelnos 5y ago
      That's bad, but is not what we're talking about here. Not to mention it was a big scandal and that practice (which was not supported by any law or legal policy) has stopped. The China-style social credit system people worry about is something done on purpose, as designed, out in the open. Can we stop taking isolated incidents and framing them as official policy?
      - eindiran 5y ago
        > what bad things might happen because of it > can we stop taking isolated incidents and framing them as official policy Which do you actually want? What bad things that might happen because of it, or that list of bad things massively trimmed down to just what the US government publicly sanctions as official policy?
        beambot 5y ago
        Don't forget to add parallel construction to the list of options too: bad things that then help make a separate case using sanctioned methods.
    - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
      >>> In January 2014, James Comey, who at the time was the FBI director, told Fox News that its investigation had found no evidence so far warranting the filing of federal criminal charges in connection with the controversy, as it had not found any evidence of "enemy hunting", and that the investigation continued. On October 23, 2015, the Justice Department declared that no criminal charges would be filed.
      - artificialLimbs 5y ago
        Corrupt Comey, who shored up the ranks on the Steele dossier gaffe which is now bearing court cases, doesn't seem like the bastion of integrity that we should be assuming is performing in good faith. Also, did you read anything else in the article?
    - drunkpotato 5y ago
      The IRS did nothing wrong here, and it certainly is not an example of the IRS penalizing people for social infractions. As with any movement with lots of money and momentum and rapidly gaining popularity, there were a lot of fraudsters capitalizing on the Tea Party movement's name and engaging in shady tax dodging practices. The IRS was correct to subject them to increased scrutiny. In terms of the facts involved, this has nothing to do with China's social credit score. Note that I am strictly talking about the facts involved, not the political fallout and usual bloviating.
      - artificialLimbs 5y ago
        >> The IRS did nothing wrong here Uhh, that's obviously debatable. I was responding to a very specific claim. It does have to do with China's social credit score in that it is a slide down the slope toward implementing such nonsense in the US.
  - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
    > There doesn't seem to be any evidence that any of this data is going to be used to Irrelevant. Get a targeted warrant, then get limited data.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"Because we need to understand the purpose of the data collection and what bad things might happen because of it." And government would of course never abuse the data it has. We've heard that before. The have, they do and they will keep doing it.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    Selective enforcement is more American than apple pie and baseball.
  - coralreef 5y ago
    The FBI needs file hashes of every photo on everyone's phone. It will help detect abusers of cp/illegal content. It is the mandate of the FBI and their job for a long time now to stop those things. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that these hashes would be used to penalize people in other ways, but if there was then sure, that's cause for worry. /parody
    - drusepth 5y ago
      The comment says /parody, but I'd happily sacrifice such a small amount of privacy (hashes of the photos of my phone; not even the photos themselves?) to help law enforcement detect abusers of child pornography and related illegal content. The hypothetical "what if" of how those hashes could be used to penalize people in other ways is FUD. We can think of millions of ways to abuse any system -- but that doesn't mean that people will.
      - coralreef 5y ago
        > We can think of millions of ways to abuse any system -- but that doesn't mean that people will. What world do you live in? Did you entirely miss out on the Snowden revelations?
  - gmadsen 5y ago
    I think history has shown enough times, that there needs to be a bigger barrier than, "no evidence currently that this data will be used in ways that differ from the stated reason"
    - Jarwain 5y ago
      I think the barrier is that if people getting canceled impacts their credit score, or if their credit directly impacts their ability to travel or get a job, there'd be a lot of social unrest. Especially in a country where people's perception and politics plays a huge role in the functioning of the government
      - gmadsen 5y ago
        I'd argue that it doesn't play that big of a role in the functioning of the government. Privacy abuse has been pretty non-partisan for decades. As Chomsky would say, the areas of intersection between the parties represent the institutional power outside the democratic process. For example, the American people do not have a choice in how to treat Snowden, he has been deemed a treasonous criminal of the state, regardless of actual public opinion on the issue
        Jarwain 5y ago
        I don't disagree that privacy abuse for various goals, or some governmental policies (like the treatment of Snowden) are not beholden to public opinion. Although the counterargument might be the intensity of public opinion on the topic. My main argument is specifically around whether the US is veering towards the implementation of a social credit score (which I think would look like having ones credit score be impacted by social reasons, and having the credit score be more pivotal to various civil liberties like travel). That's the kind of thing I think intense public outrage would shift government behaviors, especially since it's the kind of policy that would impact every single American
        gmadsen 5y ago
  - whiddershins 5y ago
    Look at the prosecution of Aaron Schwartz, where the prosecutor plainly indicated Aaron’s political views were motivation for being so zealous.
    - drunkpotato 5y ago
      I agree that's bad, but what does it have to do with the current conversation? It seems like a non sequitur.
  - ljm 5y ago
    Maybe you didn't consent to the data being sold, yet it was sold anyway? In the US, except in California perhaps, you have no recourse. In the EU, that's a violation of GDPR and various local data protection laws. Elsewhere, unclear.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  You're assigning intent without any basis in fact.
- avs733 5y ago
  Private corporations are collecting the data, the state is just buying it, and I doubt they are the only customer.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Yep. As has often been said, everything you do online is (or you should assume to be) public. There are no secrets.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      Also, everything you do on your Windows PC (and soon on a Mac).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
boringg 5y ago
Agree with Sevastopol how is it even similar? I ask, honestly, if anyone else one here is seeing a large influx of intentionally skewing of what the US does and makes it comparable to some terrible policy that China does. It really feels like there are a lot of people with strong Chinese interests mudding the waters of debate by equating the US with China. Feels very much like the Russian disinformation campaigns as Trump as elected except smarter and Chinese oriented.
- triactual 5y ago
  Yes, this is common in user comments on several otherwise intellectually useful sites. It almost always takes the form of a reasonable take followed by a comparison to China and an insinuation that the US version may be worse. The commenters have the same playbook to work from because the Russians wrote it in the mid 20th century.
  - boringg 5y ago
    Thank you - this is exactly what I was referring to. Reasonable take then moving into a comparison to China to bring China up to the same level as the US (or US down to the same level of China). Most individuals don't care or don't have the depth of knowledge to notice what is going on. I've noticed a lot more recently - probably tied to the strong national spirit coming out of China these days.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"...followed by a comparison to China and an insinuation that the US version may be worse..." I do not see insinuation that the US version is worse in this thread. What I see is people being concerned that we are on a dangerous path and building our own version mass surveillance, hence comparing it to China. Instead of shooting the messengers you'd better be concerned about where are we going. >"The commenters have the same playbook to work from because the Russians wrote it in the mid 20th century" Sure, I start my day by reading user guide written by Russians on how to fuck up the western world. Check under your bed btw. Maybe couple of them are hiding there.
- bcrosby95 5y ago
FpUser 5y ago
The similarity is global system of collecting every piece of data about citizens. You start with the little. Due to complexity and sheer amounts of laws, bylaws etc. each one of us breaks few of those every day. The systems like the one being mentioned will eventually be able to track those as well making every citizen an offender. Then when the time comes who do you thing they will choose to prosecute? Most likely those pesky human rights advocates and other similar people who are already monitored. I think unless some "Reset" button is pushed we will end up exactly like this. End up on various lists (already happening) and private companies denying vital services.
munk-a 5y ago
Pretty much everyone in the west gets a credit score the math of which is nebulous and proprietary. It is increased by acting in a desireable manner even if that manner is unhealthy or unproductive for the individual - and a lot of random BS can go into the math that we can't even see. In the west these things aren't public so it isn't the government grading you - but you still are very much being graded by private corporations. Since we have no idea what they're actually using to grade us we can't confidently say they aren't using any "social misbehavior" we'd find offensive. If these programs were run by the government we could file FOIA requests - but with private organizations we're S.O.L.
- nine_k 5y ago
  A poor credit score does not limit your ability to board a plane, to be admitted to a university, or to found a political organization. If you want a taste of low social credit score in the US life, consider the status of a convicted felon, or a status of a sex offender.
  - yc12340 5y ago
    > A poor credit score does not limit your ability to board a plane, to be admitted to a university, or to found a political organization. Is it possible to do any of those things without money?
B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
> What's the similarity Wasn't there some kerfuffle a few years ago about "special attention" being given to political targets? (Cue Richelieu's "six lines")
- LogonType10 5y ago
  The fact that we were allowed to discuss and protest this "special attention" shows that we are a far, far ways away from China's Social Credit system.

travoc 5y ago

Why do you need more similarities? The mass data collection completes the system.

kelnos 5y ago
Because we need to understand the purpose of the data collection and what bad things might happen because of it. If Treasury is using this data to catch people who violate economic sanctions, ok. If the IRS is using this data to catch people who cheat on their taxes, ok. I don't love either of those things, but they are using the data only to do things that have been defined as their job to do for a long time now. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that any of this data is going to be used to penalize people financially/economically for "social infractions", or to penalize people in unrelated ways (like, you missed payments on your credit card so you aren't allowed to ride on a train). If there was, then sure, that's cause for worry.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  >> There doesn't seem to be any evidence that any of this data is going to be used to penalize people financially/economically for "social infractions" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy
  - kelnos 5y ago
    That's bad, but is not what we're talking about here. Not to mention it was a big scandal and that practice (which was not supported by any law or legal policy) has stopped. The China-style social credit system people worry about is something done on purpose, as designed, out in the open. Can we stop taking isolated incidents and framing them as official policy?
    - eindiran 5y ago
      > what bad things might happen because of it > can we stop taking isolated incidents and framing them as official policy Which do you actually want? What bad things that might happen because of it, or that list of bad things massively trimmed down to just what the US government publicly sanctions as official policy?
      - beambot 5y ago
        Don't forget to add parallel construction to the list of options too: bad things that then help make a separate case using sanctioned methods.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    >>> In January 2014, James Comey, who at the time was the FBI director, told Fox News that its investigation had found no evidence so far warranting the filing of federal criminal charges in connection with the controversy, as it had not found any evidence of "enemy hunting", and that the investigation continued. On October 23, 2015, the Justice Department declared that no criminal charges would be filed.
    - artificialLimbs 5y ago
      Corrupt Comey, who shored up the ranks on the Steele dossier gaffe which is now bearing court cases, doesn't seem like the bastion of integrity that we should be assuming is performing in good faith. Also, did you read anything else in the article?
  - drunkpotato 5y ago
    The IRS did nothing wrong here, and it certainly is not an example of the IRS penalizing people for social infractions. As with any movement with lots of money and momentum and rapidly gaining popularity, there were a lot of fraudsters capitalizing on the Tea Party movement's name and engaging in shady tax dodging practices. The IRS was correct to subject them to increased scrutiny. In terms of the facts involved, this has nothing to do with China's social credit score. Note that I am strictly talking about the facts involved, not the political fallout and usual bloviating.
    - artificialLimbs 5y ago
      >> The IRS did nothing wrong here Uhh, that's obviously debatable. I was responding to a very specific claim. It does have to do with China's social credit score in that it is a slide down the slope toward implementing such nonsense in the US.
- WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
  > There doesn't seem to be any evidence that any of this data is going to be used to Irrelevant. Get a targeted warrant, then get limited data.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"Because we need to understand the purpose of the data collection and what bad things might happen because of it." And government would of course never abuse the data it has. We've heard that before. The have, they do and they will keep doing it.
- mulmen 5y ago
  Selective enforcement is more American than apple pie and baseball.
- coralreef 5y ago
  The FBI needs file hashes of every photo on everyone's phone. It will help detect abusers of cp/illegal content. It is the mandate of the FBI and their job for a long time now to stop those things. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that these hashes would be used to penalize people in other ways, but if there was then sure, that's cause for worry. /parody
  - drusepth 5y ago
    The comment says /parody, but I'd happily sacrifice such a small amount of privacy (hashes of the photos of my phone; not even the photos themselves?) to help law enforcement detect abusers of child pornography and related illegal content. The hypothetical "what if" of how those hashes could be used to penalize people in other ways is FUD. We can think of millions of ways to abuse any system -- but that doesn't mean that people will.
    - coralreef 5y ago
      > We can think of millions of ways to abuse any system -- but that doesn't mean that people will. What world do you live in? Did you entirely miss out on the Snowden revelations?
- gmadsen 5y ago
  I think history has shown enough times, that there needs to be a bigger barrier than, "no evidence currently that this data will be used in ways that differ from the stated reason"
  - Jarwain 5y ago
    I think the barrier is that if people getting canceled impacts their credit score, or if their credit directly impacts their ability to travel or get a job, there'd be a lot of social unrest. Especially in a country where people's perception and politics plays a huge role in the functioning of the government
    - gmadsen 5y ago
      I'd argue that it doesn't play that big of a role in the functioning of the government. Privacy abuse has been pretty non-partisan for decades. As Chomsky would say, the areas of intersection between the parties represent the institutional power outside the democratic process. For example, the American people do not have a choice in how to treat Snowden, he has been deemed a treasonous criminal of the state, regardless of actual public opinion on the issue
      - Jarwain 5y ago
        I don't disagree that privacy abuse for various goals, or some governmental policies (like the treatment of Snowden) are not beholden to public opinion. Although the counterargument might be the intensity of public opinion on the topic. My main argument is specifically around whether the US is veering towards the implementation of a social credit score (which I think would look like having ones credit score be impacted by social reasons, and having the credit score be more pivotal to various civil liberties like travel). That's the kind of thing I think intense public outrage would shift government behaviors, especially since it's the kind of policy that would impact every single American
        gmadsen 5y ago
- whiddershins 5y ago
  Look at the prosecution of Aaron Schwartz, where the prosecutor plainly indicated Aaron’s political views were motivation for being so zealous.
  - drunkpotato 5y ago
    I agree that's bad, but what does it have to do with the current conversation? It seems like a non sequitur.
- ljm 5y ago
  Maybe you didn't consent to the data being sold, yet it was sold anyway? In the US, except in California perhaps, you have no recourse. In the EU, that's a violation of GDPR and various local data protection laws. Elsewhere, unclear.
halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
You're assigning intent without any basis in fact.
avs733 5y ago
Private corporations are collecting the data, the state is just buying it, and I doubt they are the only customer.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Yep. As has often been said, everything you do online is (or you should assume to be) public. There are no secrets.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    Also, everything you do on your Windows PC (and soon on a Mac).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

boringg 5y ago

Agree with Sevastopol how is it even similar? I ask, honestly, if anyone else one here is seeing a large influx of intentionally skewing of what the US does and makes it comparable to some terrible policy that China does. It really feels like there are a lot of people with strong Chinese interests mudding the waters of debate by equating the US with China. Feels very much like the Russian disinformation campaigns as Trump as elected except smarter and Chinese oriented.

triactual 5y ago
Yes, this is common in user comments on several otherwise intellectually useful sites. It almost always takes the form of a reasonable take followed by a comparison to China and an insinuation that the US version may be worse. The commenters have the same playbook to work from because the Russians wrote it in the mid 20th century.
- boringg 5y ago
  Thank you - this is exactly what I was referring to. Reasonable take then moving into a comparison to China to bring China up to the same level as the US (or US down to the same level of China). Most individuals don't care or don't have the depth of knowledge to notice what is going on. I've noticed a lot more recently - probably tied to the strong national spirit coming out of China these days.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"...followed by a comparison to China and an insinuation that the US version may be worse..." I do not see insinuation that the US version is worse in this thread. What I see is people being concerned that we are on a dangerous path and building our own version mass surveillance, hence comparing it to China. Instead of shooting the messengers you'd better be concerned about where are we going. >"The commenters have the same playbook to work from because the Russians wrote it in the mid 20th century" Sure, I start my day by reading user guide written by Russians on how to fuck up the western world. Check under your bed btw. Maybe couple of them are hiding there.
bcrosby95 5y ago

FpUser 5y ago

The similarity is global system of collecting every piece of data about citizens. You start with the little. Due to complexity and sheer amounts of laws, bylaws etc. each one of us breaks few of those every day. The systems like the one being mentioned will eventually be able to track those as well making every citizen an offender. Then when the time comes who do you thing they will choose to prosecute? Most likely those pesky human rights advocates and other similar people who are already monitored. I think unless some "Reset" button is pushed we will end up exactly like this. End up on various lists (already happening) and private companies denying vital services.

munk-a 5y ago

Pretty much everyone in the west gets a credit score the math of which is nebulous and proprietary. It is increased by acting in a desireable manner even if that manner is unhealthy or unproductive for the individual - and a lot of random BS can go into the math that we can't even see. In the west these things aren't public so it isn't the government grading you - but you still are very much being graded by private corporations. Since we have no idea what they're actually using to grade us we can't confidently say they aren't using any "social misbehavior" we'd find offensive. If these programs were run by the government we could file FOIA requests - but with private organizations we're S.O.L.

nine_k 5y ago
A poor credit score does not limit your ability to board a plane, to be admitted to a university, or to found a political organization. If you want a taste of low social credit score in the US life, consider the status of a convicted felon, or a status of a sex offender.
- yc12340 5y ago
  > A poor credit score does not limit your ability to board a plane, to be admitted to a university, or to found a political organization. Is it possible to do any of those things without money?

B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago

> What's the similarity Wasn't there some kerfuffle a few years ago about "special attention" being given to political targets? (Cue Richelieu's "six lines")

LogonType10 5y ago
The fact that we were allowed to discuss and protest this "special attention" shows that we are a far, far ways away from China's Social Credit system.