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At the risk of exposing myself to some more sanctimonious insults, let me complete the half-told story here by showing - with the requested sources [1] that wh

At the risk of exposing myself to some more sanctimonious insults, let me complete the half-told story here by showing - with the requested sources [1] that when white South Africans were actually offered a truly level-field, one-man-one-vote referendum as to whether to end Apartheid in 1990… the vast majority (> 80%) of eligible whites turned out and voted 68% in favour - with the gerry-mandered districts in my original post voting 85% in favour. Thus supporting my original explanation that a cynically engineered voting system is incredibly advantageous to the incumbent and needs far fewer supporters than is often believed to maintain the status quo over a long period. Sadly, some people just stopped thinking after the Spitting Image jingle. And since its a mandatory part of the weird I-never-thought-I'd-see kubuki theatre on HN: to remove all possible doubt, Apartheid had no redeeming characteristics, was a completely evil idea, and only a fucking moron would defend it. Sigh [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_South_African_apartheid_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_South_African_apartheid_r...

foldr 5y ago
>the vast majority (> 80%) of eligible whites turned out and voted 68% in favour - with the gerry-mandered districts in my original post voting 85% in favour. This stat seems to support teacherdan's point. Even at a time where it had become clear that the apartheid system could not continue (regardless of whether or not people supported it in principle), almost a third of whites votes to maintain it. In other words, a whole lot of white people supported apartheid right up to the bitter end, and that is one of the reasons that it was possible for it to continue for so long. Also, the referendum appears to have been in 1992, not 1990.
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  s/1990/1992/ - thanks. Of course a hell of a lot of people supported it - most of them now long dead. [This mandatory prelude is so tedious] However, as I have shown, clearly not enough that the ruling National Party were prepared to trust their own people with continuing to vote for it. An the 1992 referendum proved their suspicions to be correct! Hence the outrageous - from the start - manipulation. If you think banal voting manipulation isn't as big a deal as the evil that lurks in mens' hearts then ask yourself - now that Iran has an Islamic democracy (they do hold elections) how does the current/next generation ever return to a secular democracy via the ballot - if that is what they want? As as in Apartheid South Africa, enormous effort has been made by the initial true believers to prevent it from ever happening. I could be wrong.
  - foldr 5y ago
    That's all fine, I just don't think it really refutes the point that "It takes a lot of people contributing to uphold it [Apartheid]." >An the 1992 referendum proved their suspicions to be correct! Well, sort of, except the National Party was campaigning for a 'Yes' [to end apartheid] vote.
    - throwaway210222 5y ago
      > Well, sort of, except the National Party was campaigning for a 'Yes' [to end apartheid] vote. I'm not sure how that minimised anyone who then voted "yes, I'm glad you are finally proposing that - its what I want"? Odd line to take. But the Apartheid National Party did a lot stranger things than that - after a quick rebrand - they decided to merge with the ANC! As I said - a complicated place.
      - foldr 5y ago
        As you’ve noted yourself, the government had a large amount of control over the media and the political system as a whole. It would be disingenuous to identify this as the primary factor in the maintenance of the apartheid system (as you have in several of your posts) and yet deny that it had any meaningful influence on the referendum result. The striking fact is that even with the party that introduced apartheid campaigning to repeal it, almost a third of whites voted to keep the system. And as others have pointed out, this was at a point in time where SA had become a pariah state and it was abundantly clear that apartheid could not continue – even to many dyed-in-the-wool racists who had no objection to it in principle.
        throwaway210222 5y ago
        I never know what the next step in these conversations is meant to be: a nation of people did a really bad thing. They - or their children their grandchildren clearly changed their mind when first given a real, unrigged vote. Now it only happened because the evil party told them to and the world was forcing them to? So what ? They haven't really changed deep down? And the proof is somehow the absolute strangers in the minority who didn't change their mind? I am going to have to call a halt to my participation here as: to quote teachrdan - is absurd.
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  > Even at a time where it had become clear that the apartheid system could not continue If North Korea can continue apartheid sure as hell could have. If you're willing to kill all the people to keep your power you won't need to. Compare, Stalin, Lenin, Gorbachev, Deng, Fidel.
  - teachrdan 5y ago
    That's a comparison I hadn't thought of. But the difference is that North Korea shares a border with its patron state, China, which is also a global super power. While South Africa had the support of the United States, it was thousands of miles away from the US, and surrounded by Black African-run states that were hostile to it, particularly Mozambique and Angola. South Africa did not have the resources to run a North Korean-style police state.
    - barry-cotter 5y ago
      North Korea has never been as rich per capita as South Africa was at the beginning of the apartheid regime and South Africa had nuclear weapons a long time before North Korea did. If they had wanted to keep the US out they could have, never mind African militaries. The nearest military that isn't obviously inferior was in Israel.
teachrdan 5y ago
You are obviously invested in the false narrative that most white South Africans always secretly opposed Apartheid, and it was just the work a few bad men who somehow kept millions of Black South Africans oppressed for decades -- conveniently, to the material benefit of the white minority. It's your choice to believe something so stupid. But to propagate this racist myth of Hacker News is a profound act of intellectual dishonesty at best. Your proof that most white South Africans opposed apartheid is that the 1990 referendum came out in favor of ending it? This vote took place after it was clear that apartheid had no future. The ANC (main black freedom party) was increasingly organized and powerful, while years of economic sanctions had taken their toll on the economy. You claim that a majority of whites opposed apartheid the entire time. Then how could the system have persisted for decades? > to remove all possible doubt, Apartheid had no redeeming characteristics... This is a cheap trick performed by the right. They denounce an unjust system while minimizing anyone's participation in it. It's oppression without any oppressors. This is how the United States lionizes Martin Luther King while downplaying the white politicians and bureaucrats (like head of the FBI J. Edgar Hoover) who persecuted him every step of the way. You may not be defending apartheid per se. But you are certainly defending millions of white South Africans who supported, enforced, and benefited from apartheid for decades, all at the expense of the overwhelming non-white majority. The fact that being reminded of their misconduct bothers you so much should tell you something. --- Land ownership under apartheid limited Black ownership to just 7% of the country: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/africa/south-africa-land-reform-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/africa/south-africa-land-refo...
- eslaught 5y ago
  I want to be convinced, but your posts don't help. Three posts up, your only citation was to Wikipedia, claiming 20% of whites were against apartheid. But the paragraph in Wikipedia itself doesn't cite anything. I hope I don't need to say: Wikipedia is not in and of itself a source. Either they need to cite some sort of an underlying source, or you do. The post I'm immediately replying to has one citation to a source about Black ownership of land. That's not what's under dispute here. Can you provide some actual sources substantiating the claim of what percentage of whites actually did (or did not) support apartheid? Otherwise your posts are pure rhetoric.
wolverine876 5y ago
> At the risk of exposing myself to some more sanctimonious insults Please leave out the victim rhetoric, which is a very tired and worn tactic; it's just personal attacks in reverse. Nothing in the GP was an insult. If you have a point to make, say it.

foldr 5y ago

>the vast majority (> 80%) of eligible whites turned out and voted 68% in favour - with the gerry-mandered districts in my original post voting 85% in favour. This stat seems to support teacherdan's point. Even at a time where it had become clear that the apartheid system could not continue (regardless of whether or not people supported it in principle), almost a third of whites votes to maintain it. In other words, a whole lot of white people supported apartheid right up to the bitter end, and that is one of the reasons that it was possible for it to continue for so long. Also, the referendum appears to have been in 1992, not 1990.

throwaway210222 5y ago
s/1990/1992/ - thanks. Of course a hell of a lot of people supported it - most of them now long dead. [This mandatory prelude is so tedious] However, as I have shown, clearly not enough that the ruling National Party were prepared to trust their own people with continuing to vote for it. An the 1992 referendum proved their suspicions to be correct! Hence the outrageous - from the start - manipulation. If you think banal voting manipulation isn't as big a deal as the evil that lurks in mens' hearts then ask yourself - now that Iran has an Islamic democracy (they do hold elections) how does the current/next generation ever return to a secular democracy via the ballot - if that is what they want? As as in Apartheid South Africa, enormous effort has been made by the initial true believers to prevent it from ever happening. I could be wrong.
- foldr 5y ago
  That's all fine, I just don't think it really refutes the point that "It takes a lot of people contributing to uphold it [Apartheid]." >An the 1992 referendum proved their suspicions to be correct! Well, sort of, except the National Party was campaigning for a 'Yes' [to end apartheid] vote.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    > Well, sort of, except the National Party was campaigning for a 'Yes' [to end apartheid] vote. I'm not sure how that minimised anyone who then voted "yes, I'm glad you are finally proposing that - its what I want"? Odd line to take. But the Apartheid National Party did a lot stranger things than that - after a quick rebrand - they decided to merge with the ANC! As I said - a complicated place.
    - foldr 5y ago
      As you’ve noted yourself, the government had a large amount of control over the media and the political system as a whole. It would be disingenuous to identify this as the primary factor in the maintenance of the apartheid system (as you have in several of your posts) and yet deny that it had any meaningful influence on the referendum result. The striking fact is that even with the party that introduced apartheid campaigning to repeal it, almost a third of whites voted to keep the system. And as others have pointed out, this was at a point in time where SA had become a pariah state and it was abundantly clear that apartheid could not continue – even to many dyed-in-the-wool racists who had no objection to it in principle.
      - throwaway210222 5y ago
        I never know what the next step in these conversations is meant to be: a nation of people did a really bad thing. They - or their children their grandchildren clearly changed their mind when first given a real, unrigged vote. Now it only happened because the evil party told them to and the world was forcing them to? So what ? They haven't really changed deep down? And the proof is somehow the absolute strangers in the minority who didn't change their mind? I am going to have to call a halt to my participation here as: to quote teachrdan - is absurd.
barry-cotter 5y ago
> Even at a time where it had become clear that the apartheid system could not continue If North Korea can continue apartheid sure as hell could have. If you're willing to kill all the people to keep your power you won't need to. Compare, Stalin, Lenin, Gorbachev, Deng, Fidel.
- teachrdan 5y ago
  That's a comparison I hadn't thought of. But the difference is that North Korea shares a border with its patron state, China, which is also a global super power. While South Africa had the support of the United States, it was thousands of miles away from the US, and surrounded by Black African-run states that were hostile to it, particularly Mozambique and Angola. South Africa did not have the resources to run a North Korean-style police state.
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    North Korea has never been as rich per capita as South Africa was at the beginning of the apartheid regime and South Africa had nuclear weapons a long time before North Korea did. If they had wanted to keep the US out they could have, never mind African militaries. The nearest military that isn't obviously inferior was in Israel.

teachrdan 5y ago

You are obviously invested in the false narrative that most white South Africans always secretly opposed Apartheid, and it was just the work a few bad men who somehow kept millions of Black South Africans oppressed for decades -- conveniently, to the material benefit of the white minority. It's your choice to believe something so stupid. But to propagate this racist myth of Hacker News is a profound act of intellectual dishonesty at best. Your proof that most white South Africans opposed apartheid is that the 1990 referendum came out in favor of ending it? This vote took place after it was clear that apartheid had no future. The ANC (main black freedom party) was increasingly organized and powerful, while years of economic sanctions had taken their toll on the economy. You claim that a majority of whites opposed apartheid the entire time. Then how could the system have persisted for decades? > to remove all possible doubt, Apartheid had no redeeming characteristics... This is a cheap trick performed by the right. They denounce an unjust system while minimizing anyone's participation in it. It's oppression without any oppressors. This is how the United States lionizes Martin Luther King while downplaying the white politicians and bureaucrats (like head of the FBI J. Edgar Hoover) who persecuted him every step of the way. You may not be defending apartheid per se. But you are certainly defending millions of white South Africans who supported, enforced, and benefited from apartheid for decades, all at the expense of the overwhelming non-white majority. The fact that being reminded of their misconduct bothers you so much should tell you something. --- Land ownership under apartheid limited Black ownership to just 7% of the country: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/africa/south-africa-land-reform-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/africa/south-africa-land-refo...

eslaught 5y ago
I want to be convinced, but your posts don't help. Three posts up, your only citation was to Wikipedia, claiming 20% of whites were against apartheid. But the paragraph in Wikipedia itself doesn't cite anything. I hope I don't need to say: Wikipedia is not in and of itself a source. Either they need to cite some sort of an underlying source, or you do. The post I'm immediately replying to has one citation to a source about Black ownership of land. That's not what's under dispute here. Can you provide some actual sources substantiating the claim of what percentage of whites actually did (or did not) support apartheid? Otherwise your posts are pure rhetoric.

wolverine876 5y ago

> At the risk of exposing myself to some more sanctimonious insults Please leave out the victim rhetoric, which is a very tired and worn tactic; it's just personal attacks in reverse. Nothing in the GP was an insult. If you have a point to make, say it.