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> I get that there are a few professions where you're really going to need to know the right answer quickly without looking it up under high-pressure situations

by imilk 5y ago

> I get that there are a few professions where you're really going to need to know the right answer quickly without looking it up under high-pressure situations I agree with the premise, but I think you're downplaying this quite a bit. Pretty much any job that you're not doing asynchronous work in front of a computer would apply here. > If you elaborately cheat your way through all online classes all the way through undergrad, that seems mostly bad for you Well it's more than bad for just you. It's bad for the university and everyone else with a degree from there since you are degrading the value of having that degree.

maerF0x0 5y ago
I'm curious about the proportion of careers which are not adaptable to asynchronous/remote work, that _is_ best tested through rote memorization (think multiple choice questions) versus active demonstration (think like having an instructor see you do CPR on a dummy)? Just a thought about how it's weird we argue about how testing should be done online, but not the fact we test online things which are not really online in their nature.
- imilk 5y ago
  Pretty much anything that requires real time communication involving a deep base of knowledge. I'm not going to list out hundreds of possible roles that this encompasses - but I'm sure you have the imagination to think of a few.
vlunkr 5y ago
> Pretty much any job that you're not doing asynchronous work in front of a computer would apply here. It's lame to ask for examples, but do you have any? Because honestly I don't think it applies to many jobs, unless it's something that a) puts you in high pressure situations, and b) requires specific in-depth knowledge. There aren't that many jobs like that, and for the ones that do exist (medical, military), you don't get in just by doing a bunch of multiple choice tests.
- profile53 5y ago
  > for the ones that do exist (medical, military), you don’t get in just by doing a bunch of multiple choice tests As someone in the medical field, I would say upwards of 80% of the graded portion of a nursing license and it’s certifications (trauma nursing, cardiac life support, etc), you’re graded entirely on multiple choice questions. People die from mistakes, yet I meet a lot of people who proudly admit to having cheated or googled their way through a much of their studies. Some of them are good and quite a few are downright dangerous at their jobs.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > I would say upwards of 80% of the graded portion of a nursing license and it’s certifications (trauma nursing, cardiac life support, etc), you’re graded entirely on multiple choice questions. A lot of places won't let you take the exam without practical experience, under the supervision of clinical personnel. Harder to google your way through that.
    - profile53 5y ago
      I can’t speak to the certification exams, but for nursing school, there is a high pressure from administration to pass students as long as they can pass the standardized test, even if the teachers don’t think the student is ready or safe for clinical work. So, although they do have practical experience, it is often limited in scope and students can fake their way through it to a surprisingly large extent (they’re always paired with a licensed staff member). This is anecdotal, but consistent across what has been told to me by staff members of several nursing schools.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  I’d argue that a lot of jobs have time that is stressful, high pressure and requires one to have the knowledge immediately. A truck driver, a crane operator, a musician, a teacher, a chef. Danger doesn’t have to be physical. Embarrassment, potential failure etc are all reasons to need to know something without looking it up.
julienb_sea 5y ago
I completely disagree. Knowledge recollection of school taught concepts is irrelevant to practically every job. Yes, most jobs require you to remember various work-related things, but those are not taught in school, they are taught and reinforced on the job itself.
- imilk 5y ago
  What this tells me is that you may not have gotten the most out of your education. Sure there are specific tasks that you learn how to complete for particular jobs, but the structure of how you approach problems should have been helped quite a bit by what you learn in school. Personally I found studying philosophy extremely helpful to solving business problems. Not because there is an exact 1 for 1 concept match. Rather it teaches you how to frame and break down problems so that you can be more adaptable and efficient when faced with various unknowns. There's always going to be domain specific learning needed for any position. But to dismiss any tangential knowledge as useless is extremely short sided.
  - rembicilious 5y ago
    You said “studying philosophy” rather than “being tested on rote memorization of philosophy text books”. I agree that “studying philosophy” is a worthwhile endeavor, but I align more closely with the parents in regards to memorizing the semi-random litany of data bits that show up in a typical exam. The information is ultimately forgotten and is usually only relevant in the context of the current textbook chapter. Nearly every useful concept that applies to my two separate careers was learned on the job. The time spent in the classroom is nearly irrelevant and could have been replaced entirely by several weeks on the job.
    - imilk 5y ago
      I just gave an personal example to flesh out my post. But if, for example, you are a structural engineer who has to consult on site with clients, you certainly need to recall a litany of data/concepts (random or non-random) pretty quickly if you don't want to look like an idiot. You cannot learn this knowledge from a few weeks on the job because the client would be able to see through your bullshit in minutes. This applies to pretty much any position that needs to communicate in real time about a base of knowledge (doctors, lawyers, logistics, any type of management position). If you believe that any career can be substituted by "a few weeks on the job", you're not really aiming that high for yourself.
tomphoolery 5y ago
Conan O'Brien went to Harvard, so we've already degraded the value of having a degree in general.
- imilk 5y ago
  He seems to have had a very successful career doing something that he enjoys. I don't really understand your point.
- aspenmayer 5y ago
  I think Conan would like this joke. Sounds like one Andy would make at his expense back in the day.

by imilk 5y ago

maerF0x0 5y ago

I'm curious about the proportion of careers which are not adaptable to asynchronous/remote work, that _is_ best tested through rote memorization (think multiple choice questions) versus active demonstration (think like having an instructor see you do CPR on a dummy)? Just a thought about how it's weird we argue about how testing should be done online, but not the fact we test online things which are not really online in their nature.

imilk 5y ago
Pretty much anything that requires real time communication involving a deep base of knowledge. I'm not going to list out hundreds of possible roles that this encompasses - but I'm sure you have the imagination to think of a few.

vlunkr 5y ago

> Pretty much any job that you're not doing asynchronous work in front of a computer would apply here. It's lame to ask for examples, but do you have any? Because honestly I don't think it applies to many jobs, unless it's something that a) puts you in high pressure situations, and b) requires specific in-depth knowledge. There aren't that many jobs like that, and for the ones that do exist (medical, military), you don't get in just by doing a bunch of multiple choice tests.

profile53 5y ago
> for the ones that do exist (medical, military), you don’t get in just by doing a bunch of multiple choice tests As someone in the medical field, I would say upwards of 80% of the graded portion of a nursing license and it’s certifications (trauma nursing, cardiac life support, etc), you’re graded entirely on multiple choice questions. People die from mistakes, yet I meet a lot of people who proudly admit to having cheated or googled their way through a much of their studies. Some of them are good and quite a few are downright dangerous at their jobs.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > I would say upwards of 80% of the graded portion of a nursing license and it’s certifications (trauma nursing, cardiac life support, etc), you’re graded entirely on multiple choice questions. A lot of places won't let you take the exam without practical experience, under the supervision of clinical personnel. Harder to google your way through that.
  - profile53 5y ago
    I can’t speak to the certification exams, but for nursing school, there is a high pressure from administration to pass students as long as they can pass the standardized test, even if the teachers don’t think the student is ready or safe for clinical work. So, although they do have practical experience, it is often limited in scope and students can fake their way through it to a surprisingly large extent (they’re always paired with a licensed staff member). This is anecdotal, but consistent across what has been told to me by staff members of several nursing schools.
lostlogin 5y ago
I’d argue that a lot of jobs have time that is stressful, high pressure and requires one to have the knowledge immediately. A truck driver, a crane operator, a musician, a teacher, a chef. Danger doesn’t have to be physical. Embarrassment, potential failure etc are all reasons to need to know something without looking it up.

julienb_sea 5y ago

I completely disagree. Knowledge recollection of school taught concepts is irrelevant to practically every job. Yes, most jobs require you to remember various work-related things, but those are not taught in school, they are taught and reinforced on the job itself.

imilk 5y ago
What this tells me is that you may not have gotten the most out of your education. Sure there are specific tasks that you learn how to complete for particular jobs, but the structure of how you approach problems should have been helped quite a bit by what you learn in school. Personally I found studying philosophy extremely helpful to solving business problems. Not because there is an exact 1 for 1 concept match. Rather it teaches you how to frame and break down problems so that you can be more adaptable and efficient when faced with various unknowns. There's always going to be domain specific learning needed for any position. But to dismiss any tangential knowledge as useless is extremely short sided.
- rembicilious 5y ago
  You said “studying philosophy” rather than “being tested on rote memorization of philosophy text books”. I agree that “studying philosophy” is a worthwhile endeavor, but I align more closely with the parents in regards to memorizing the semi-random litany of data bits that show up in a typical exam. The information is ultimately forgotten and is usually only relevant in the context of the current textbook chapter. Nearly every useful concept that applies to my two separate careers was learned on the job. The time spent in the classroom is nearly irrelevant and could have been replaced entirely by several weeks on the job.
  - imilk 5y ago
    I just gave an personal example to flesh out my post. But if, for example, you are a structural engineer who has to consult on site with clients, you certainly need to recall a litany of data/concepts (random or non-random) pretty quickly if you don't want to look like an idiot. You cannot learn this knowledge from a few weeks on the job because the client would be able to see through your bullshit in minutes. This applies to pretty much any position that needs to communicate in real time about a base of knowledge (doctors, lawyers, logistics, any type of management position). If you believe that any career can be substituted by "a few weeks on the job", you're not really aiming that high for yourself.

tomphoolery 5y ago

Conan O'Brien went to Harvard, so we've already degraded the value of having a degree in general.

imilk 5y ago
He seems to have had a very successful career doing something that he enjoys. I don't really understand your point.
aspenmayer 5y ago
I think Conan would like this joke. Sounds like one Andy would make at his expense back in the day.