10 ms·

Could this be a generational issue? I've met many pre-Apartheid white, South Africans who immigrated to London. And, wow, the racist shit they would say about

by yardie 5y ago

Could this be a generational issue? I've met many pre-Apartheid white, South Africans who immigrated to London. And, wow, the racist shit they would say about black South Africans. Many found their racist attitude simply wouldn't fly in cosmopolitan London so they fled back to South Africa or Australia. Of the younger generation many were too young to fully comprehend apartheid or denounce it entirely. > Each country has its good and bad men (and women for that matter), and if you could do a census I can almost guarantee the distribution would follow the usual Bell curve. South African apartheid was a giant state apparatus. It takes a lot of people contributing to uphold it. While no one likes to think they were in the bad guy group I'm thinking the bell curve is going to look like a slope given the testimony from T&R records.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
I've always assumed that most white South Africans who tried to emigrate are the ones who profited heavily under apartheid and are unwilling to live under multiethnic rule. Basically the most racist of the bunch.
- yardie 5y ago
  That's not what I understood. Once the new government formed there was a quite a bit of economic instability. White South Africans who benefited heavily under the old apartheid regime saw their career and economic prospects shrink and used their old commonwealth connections to migrate to the UK, Canada, and Australia. They didn't enjoy living with apartheid but they weren't going to sacrifice their comfort so that black South Africans would get a fair shot. The government had instituted some affirmative action measures and quite a few took that as a cue to leave.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    I'm not really seeing how what you say is different from what I said, except that you don't think they were racist for it. But then how do you explain the extreme racism you experienced from those emigrates?
throwaway210222 5y ago
> It takes a lot of people contributing to uphold it [Apartheid]. Actually it really, really didn't. Students of history will know that National Party (which assembled Grand Apartheid and ruled from 1948 to 1994) merrily gerrymandered the entire country on a scale seldom seem. 1. liberal (more English) areas like those near Durban were magically made part of conservative (more Afrikaans) farming areas hundreds of kilometres away. A good example is the affluent enclaves of Kloof and Hillcrest in Durban were somehow part of the [at the time] extremely conservative Voortrekker town of Greytown a mere 150km away; 2. a further law deemed that the rural votes in each such Frankenstein voting district counted 100%, the distant urban votes a mere 75% 3. this happened everywhere and ensured a massive majority for the National Party in every province; 4. there was by design - and in the most literal sense - no way for the white population to vote themselves out of Apartheid. It was so successful that for many years their was only ONE liberal opposition member of parliament [Houghton, Johannesburg]. I understand details are tough and cloud the cartoon good-vs-evil polemic you were no doubt exposed to. I guess one does get more dopamine from wild sweeping statements that reinforce and display your own ignorance and bigotry. I wouldn't use my real name either in posts like yours. For the casual observer: let this be a cautionary tale when gerrymandering is attempted in your own democracy. [PS. Southern Rhodesia - now Zimbabwe - had a different, but equally effective voting mechanism to suppress the growth of a liberal opposition. For another day ]
- mcguire 5y ago
  Speaking as an older adult male from the south of the United States, I'm afraid one of my eyebrows was creeping upward while I read this. It's not the first time I have seen this kind of argument. Don't get me wrong, I am sure the vast majority of South Africans, English and Afrikaans, are decent enough people. It's really just that the "it wasn't all of us, it was those really bad people over there" is a part of the whole Lost Cause thing. Sorry.
  - zizee 5y ago
    So anyone living under a corrupt/violent regime are guilty of that regimes actions? Neat.
markdown 5y ago
> I've met many pre-Apartheid white, South Africans who immigrated That's it right there. The worst of them left after the collapse of their white supremacist paradise. Every time you see a South African immigrant in New Zealand (for example), chances are they're racist shitbags.
- didntknowya 5y ago
  hah personally I've never met one that fit the stereotype, but yes I hear that assumption a lot here in NZ
  - markdown 5y ago
    It's probably age-dependent of course. Does your experience relate to older folk?
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Some immigrated to avoid military service for the Apartheid regime. I despise Apartheid though perhaps we should point the finger less at our predecessors and act on similar oppression today. When there is significant evil in our societies, is it enough to say I didn't support it? Or are we obligated to put a stop to it? The latter is a harsh, demanding judgment, but that doesn't mean it's not true. Tacit opposition is no different than tacit support.

by yardie 5y ago

boomboomsubban 5y ago

I've always assumed that most white South Africans who tried to emigrate are the ones who profited heavily under apartheid and are unwilling to live under multiethnic rule. Basically the most racist of the bunch.

yardie 5y ago
That's not what I understood. Once the new government formed there was a quite a bit of economic instability. White South Africans who benefited heavily under the old apartheid regime saw their career and economic prospects shrink and used their old commonwealth connections to migrate to the UK, Canada, and Australia. They didn't enjoy living with apartheid but they weren't going to sacrifice their comfort so that black South Africans would get a fair shot. The government had instituted some affirmative action measures and quite a few took that as a cue to leave.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  I'm not really seeing how what you say is different from what I said, except that you don't think they were racist for it. But then how do you explain the extreme racism you experienced from those emigrates?

throwaway210222 5y ago

> It takes a lot of people contributing to uphold it [Apartheid]. Actually it really, really didn't. Students of history will know that National Party (which assembled Grand Apartheid and ruled from 1948 to 1994) merrily gerrymandered the entire country on a scale seldom seem. 1. liberal (more English) areas like those near Durban were magically made part of conservative (more Afrikaans) farming areas hundreds of kilometres away. A good example is the affluent enclaves of Kloof and Hillcrest in Durban were somehow part of the [at the time] extremely conservative Voortrekker town of Greytown a mere 150km away; 2. a further law deemed that the rural votes in each such Frankenstein voting district counted 100%, the distant urban votes a mere 75% 3. this happened everywhere and ensured a massive majority for the National Party in every province; 4. there was by design - and in the most literal sense - no way for the white population to vote themselves out of Apartheid. It was so successful that for many years their was only ONE liberal opposition member of parliament [Houghton, Johannesburg]. I understand details are tough and cloud the cartoon good-vs-evil polemic you were no doubt exposed to. I guess one does get more dopamine from wild sweeping statements that reinforce and display your own ignorance and bigotry. I wouldn't use my real name either in posts like yours. For the casual observer: let this be a cautionary tale when gerrymandering is attempted in your own democracy. [PS. Southern Rhodesia - now Zimbabwe - had a different, but equally effective voting mechanism to suppress the growth of a liberal opposition. For another day ]

mcguire 5y ago
Speaking as an older adult male from the south of the United States, I'm afraid one of my eyebrows was creeping upward while I read this. It's not the first time I have seen this kind of argument. Don't get me wrong, I am sure the vast majority of South Africans, English and Afrikaans, are decent enough people. It's really just that the "it wasn't all of us, it was those really bad people over there" is a part of the whole Lost Cause thing. Sorry.
- zizee 5y ago
  So anyone living under a corrupt/violent regime are guilty of that regimes actions? Neat.

markdown 5y ago

> I've met many pre-Apartheid white, South Africans who immigrated That's it right there. The worst of them left after the collapse of their white supremacist paradise. Every time you see a South African immigrant in New Zealand (for example), chances are they're racist shitbags.

didntknowya 5y ago
hah personally I've never met one that fit the stereotype, but yes I hear that assumption a lot here in NZ
- markdown 5y ago
  It's probably age-dependent of course. Does your experience relate to older folk?
wolverine876 5y ago
Some immigrated to avoid military service for the Apartheid regime. I despise Apartheid though perhaps we should point the finger less at our predecessors and act on similar oppression today. When there is significant evil in our societies, is it enough to say I didn't support it? Or are we obligated to put a stop to it? The latter is a harsh, demanding judgment, but that doesn't mean it's not true. Tacit opposition is no different than tacit support.