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"Here's What You Need to Remember: Men like Denard but perhaps a little less theatrical—many of them South Africans—took the next logical step. They founded bus

"Here's What You Need to Remember: Men like Denard but perhaps a little less theatrical—many of them South Africans—took the next logical step. They founded businesses with boring-sounding names but a deadly purpose: to fight Africa’s nastiest conflicts on behalf of corrupt, inept governments, and for profit" I'm heartily sick and tired of the way white South African men are portrayed as the 'new bogeymen'. Each country has its good and bad men (and women for that matter), and if you could do a census I can almost guarantee the distribution would follow the usual Bell curve. Get your facts first, then you may distort them as you please. PS: I'm a white South African male

schrijver 5y ago
You’re reading too much into it… that there were many South African mercenaries is a historical fact, they’re not stereotyping any population in that sentence. For what it’s worth, in the popular consciousness outside of SA, the white South African as a bogeyman probably peaked a long time ago, I would say around 1989 — when Lethal Weapon 2 was released with South Africans as the bad guys.
- panzagl 5y ago
  I guess you could nitpick as to how many of them were from Rhodesia instead of South Africa proper. But South Africans have certainly made a cottage industry out of bush war memoirs, so it's hard to be too nitpicky.
- hedgehog 5y ago
  There's some basis. Executive Outcomes was in its day one of the premier private military contractors and formed largely out of outgoing military who served the regime. Any time a big organization gets downsized those people need to find jobs, at the same time there's a robust market for arms-length labor to take on dangerous and politically risky work. The US has probably been #1 for the last 20 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes
ninja3925 5y ago
FYI: I didn't read the racial taint in the sentence.
yardie 5y ago
Could this be a generational issue? I've met many pre-Apartheid white, South Africans who immigrated to London. And, wow, the racist shit they would say about black South Africans. Many found their racist attitude simply wouldn't fly in cosmopolitan London so they fled back to South Africa or Australia. Of the younger generation many were too young to fully comprehend apartheid or denounce it entirely. > Each country has its good and bad men (and women for that matter), and if you could do a census I can almost guarantee the distribution would follow the usual Bell curve. South African apartheid was a giant state apparatus. It takes a lot of people contributing to uphold it. While no one likes to think they were in the bad guy group I'm thinking the bell curve is going to look like a slope given the testimony from T&R records.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  I've always assumed that most white South Africans who tried to emigrate are the ones who profited heavily under apartheid and are unwilling to live under multiethnic rule. Basically the most racist of the bunch.
  - yardie 5y ago
    That's not what I understood. Once the new government formed there was a quite a bit of economic instability. White South Africans who benefited heavily under the old apartheid regime saw their career and economic prospects shrink and used their old commonwealth connections to migrate to the UK, Canada, and Australia. They didn't enjoy living with apartheid but they weren't going to sacrifice their comfort so that black South Africans would get a fair shot. The government had instituted some affirmative action measures and quite a few took that as a cue to leave.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      I'm not really seeing how what you say is different from what I said, except that you don't think they were racist for it. But then how do you explain the extreme racism you experienced from those emigrates?
- 5y ago
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
> I'm heartily sick and tired of the way white South African men are portrayed as the 'new bogeymen'. New boogeyman? The malign influence of whites in Africa is not a new phenomenon. The statement you took issue with is true. Of course, nobody reasonable would suggest that all whites in Africa, or that all white South Africans, are bad people, but it's disingenuous to dismiss historical facts about what white people have done in Africa on the basis that it hurts white people in Africa's feelings.
- nuerow 5y ago
  > (...) but it's disingenuous to dismiss historical facts about what white people have done in Africa You really have to figure out what you're referring to as "white people", not only because of the inherent racism in your statement but also because it fails to recognize the root cause of the colonialism problem throughout the world, including Africa. For example, do you feel it's appropriate to blame race when colonialist powers were forcing "white people" into exile to their colonies under the penalty of death? How about "white people" taking job offers to work on any industry located in said colonies and consequently ended up making their home there? Are you to blame for a problem just because you find yourself somewhere and you happen to be the wrong race? Colonialism were the result of oppressive policies driven by authoritarian regimes, but these processes weren't driven bottom-up.
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    > For example, do you feel it's appropriate to blame race Where did I "blame" race? And for what? People who are white have done horrible things in Africa. People who are black have done horrible things in Africa. It is, however, a simple fact that the people who are white came to Africa from other places. Looking at the history, I don't think it's difficult to make a strong argument that, on the whole, the arrival of white Europeans on the continent has hurt the (black) people who were already there more than it has helped them. That's not blaming white people for all that ails Africa. It's also not disingenuously dismissing the malign influence white Europeans have had on the continent. Again, let's look at the statement the OP took issue with and suggested was racist: > Men like Denard but perhaps a little less theatrical—many of them South Africans—took the next logical step. They founded businesses with boring-sounding names but a deadly purpose: to fight Africa’s nastiest conflicts on behalf of corrupt, inept governments, and for profit Where's the racism in this? Is this not true?
knodi123 5y ago
> Men like Denard but perhaps a little less theatrical—many of them South Africans So if all of the men being discussed had a hat with a propellor on it, we should be careful to avoid saying so, because there are also innocent unrelated men who wear propellor beanies? If a disproportionate ratio of those men are all from the same relatively small demographic in a relatively remote location, it should not be off-limits to notice that.
Ancapistani 5y ago
> the way white South African men are portrayed I’m at least aware of the issues with SA, but I must point out that the article didn’t say that they were white. Without knowing more about the people involved, I certainly didn’t make that assumption.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  Me neither. And there's so many people, I wouldn't generalize from what some mercenaries did, to the population in general (those who look like the mercenaries). Id think almost no one does?, and that you're over reacting, @cybert00th? (Otoh I didn't know that a SA white bogeyman was a thing, so what do I know.)
animal531 5y ago
I'll counter this as another white South African male and say that no one globally is portraying South African white men as any kind of new bogeyman. After the fall of apartheid the new democratically voted for (black) government came into power, meaning that the old government, military, police, municipalities etc. faced pressure in replacing all the previous white employees with new black employees. That meant that those white people needed to start finding new jobs. For your general office worker from a municipality or a low level policeman that meant transitioning to something else, such as generic office job, learning new skills such as using computers etc. But for your extreme specialists, for example from the Army Special Task Force, they often had advanced training and skills which they didn't want to trade for an entry level position somewhere. That meant translating those skills into something new, such as (mainly) local security companies (to combat the new rise in crime in the country); but also as contractors such as named in the article. Even the article itself isn't focused on condemning the individual contractors, it's merely stating that the creation of these private armies are raising hard questions around their use, liability and who they need to be accountable to.
dang 5y ago
Of course it's frustrating to encounter condemnations of anything one identifies with, but by fulminating aggressively* on an inflammatory topic, you broke the site guidelines badly and predictably set off a wretched, hellish flamewar. Please don't do that on HN. We're trying for something different than internet default here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html * I'm sure you didn't mean to be or experience yourself as posting aggressively. The problem is that there isn't much difference between "defensive" and "aggressive". Mostly we experience ourselves doing the former and other people experience us doing the latter. Everyone functions this way, which is how we get flamewars where everyone feels like the others (a) started it, and (b) did worse.

schrijver 5y ago

You’re reading too much into it… that there were many South African mercenaries is a historical fact, they’re not stereotyping any population in that sentence. For what it’s worth, in the popular consciousness outside of SA, the white South African as a bogeyman probably peaked a long time ago, I would say around 1989 — when Lethal Weapon 2 was released with South Africans as the bad guys.

panzagl 5y ago
I guess you could nitpick as to how many of them were from Rhodesia instead of South Africa proper. But South Africans have certainly made a cottage industry out of bush war memoirs, so it's hard to be too nitpicky.
hedgehog 5y ago
There's some basis. Executive Outcomes was in its day one of the premier private military contractors and formed largely out of outgoing military who served the regime. Any time a big organization gets downsized those people need to find jobs, at the same time there's a robust market for arms-length labor to take on dangerous and politically risky work. The US has probably been #1 for the last 20 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes

ninja3925 5y ago

FYI: I didn't read the racial taint in the sentence.

yardie 5y ago

Could this be a generational issue? I've met many pre-Apartheid white, South Africans who immigrated to London. And, wow, the racist shit they would say about black South Africans. Many found their racist attitude simply wouldn't fly in cosmopolitan London so they fled back to South Africa or Australia. Of the younger generation many were too young to fully comprehend apartheid or denounce it entirely. > Each country has its good and bad men (and women for that matter), and if you could do a census I can almost guarantee the distribution would follow the usual Bell curve. South African apartheid was a giant state apparatus. It takes a lot of people contributing to uphold it. While no one likes to think they were in the bad guy group I'm thinking the bell curve is going to look like a slope given the testimony from T&R records.

boomboomsubban 5y ago
I've always assumed that most white South Africans who tried to emigrate are the ones who profited heavily under apartheid and are unwilling to live under multiethnic rule. Basically the most racist of the bunch.
- yardie 5y ago
  That's not what I understood. Once the new government formed there was a quite a bit of economic instability. White South Africans who benefited heavily under the old apartheid regime saw their career and economic prospects shrink and used their old commonwealth connections to migrate to the UK, Canada, and Australia. They didn't enjoy living with apartheid but they weren't going to sacrifice their comfort so that black South Africans would get a fair shot. The government had instituted some affirmative action measures and quite a few took that as a cue to leave.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    I'm not really seeing how what you say is different from what I said, except that you don't think they were racist for it. But then how do you explain the extreme racism you experienced from those emigrates?
5y ago

LurkingPenguin 5y ago

> I'm heartily sick and tired of the way white South African men are portrayed as the 'new bogeymen'. New boogeyman? The malign influence of whites in Africa is not a new phenomenon. The statement you took issue with is true. Of course, nobody reasonable would suggest that all whites in Africa, or that all white South Africans, are bad people, but it's disingenuous to dismiss historical facts about what white people have done in Africa on the basis that it hurts white people in Africa's feelings.

nuerow 5y ago
> (...) but it's disingenuous to dismiss historical facts about what white people have done in Africa You really have to figure out what you're referring to as "white people", not only because of the inherent racism in your statement but also because it fails to recognize the root cause of the colonialism problem throughout the world, including Africa. For example, do you feel it's appropriate to blame race when colonialist powers were forcing "white people" into exile to their colonies under the penalty of death? How about "white people" taking job offers to work on any industry located in said colonies and consequently ended up making their home there? Are you to blame for a problem just because you find yourself somewhere and you happen to be the wrong race? Colonialism were the result of oppressive policies driven by authoritarian regimes, but these processes weren't driven bottom-up.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  > For example, do you feel it's appropriate to blame race Where did I "blame" race? And for what? People who are white have done horrible things in Africa. People who are black have done horrible things in Africa. It is, however, a simple fact that the people who are white came to Africa from other places. Looking at the history, I don't think it's difficult to make a strong argument that, on the whole, the arrival of white Europeans on the continent has hurt the (black) people who were already there more than it has helped them. That's not blaming white people for all that ails Africa. It's also not disingenuously dismissing the malign influence white Europeans have had on the continent. Again, let's look at the statement the OP took issue with and suggested was racist: > Men like Denard but perhaps a little less theatrical—many of them South Africans—took the next logical step. They founded businesses with boring-sounding names but a deadly purpose: to fight Africa’s nastiest conflicts on behalf of corrupt, inept governments, and for profit Where's the racism in this? Is this not true?

knodi123 5y ago

> Men like Denard but perhaps a little less theatrical—many of them South Africans So if all of the men being discussed had a hat with a propellor on it, we should be careful to avoid saying so, because there are also innocent unrelated men who wear propellor beanies? If a disproportionate ratio of those men are all from the same relatively small demographic in a relatively remote location, it should not be off-limits to notice that.

Ancapistani 5y ago

> the way white South African men are portrayed I’m at least aware of the issues with SA, but I must point out that the article didn’t say that they were white. Without knowing more about the people involved, I certainly didn’t make that assumption.

cutemonster 5y ago
Me neither. And there's so many people, I wouldn't generalize from what some mercenaries did, to the population in general (those who look like the mercenaries). Id think almost no one does?, and that you're over reacting, @cybert00th? (Otoh I didn't know that a SA white bogeyman was a thing, so what do I know.)

animal531 5y ago

I'll counter this as another white South African male and say that no one globally is portraying South African white men as any kind of new bogeyman. After the fall of apartheid the new democratically voted for (black) government came into power, meaning that the old government, military, police, municipalities etc. faced pressure in replacing all the previous white employees with new black employees. That meant that those white people needed to start finding new jobs. For your general office worker from a municipality or a low level policeman that meant transitioning to something else, such as generic office job, learning new skills such as using computers etc. But for your extreme specialists, for example from the Army Special Task Force, they often had advanced training and skills which they didn't want to trade for an entry level position somewhere. That meant translating those skills into something new, such as (mainly) local security companies (to combat the new rise in crime in the country); but also as contractors such as named in the article. Even the article itself isn't focused on condemning the individual contractors, it's merely stating that the creation of these private armies are raising hard questions around their use, liability and who they need to be accountable to.

dang 5y ago

Of course it's frustrating to encounter condemnations of anything one identifies with, but by fulminating aggressively* on an inflammatory topic, you broke the site guidelines badly and predictably set off a wretched, hellish flamewar. Please don't do that on HN. We're trying for something different than internet default here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html * I'm sure you didn't mean to be or experience yourself as posting aggressively. The problem is that there isn't much difference between "defensive" and "aggressive". Mostly we experience ourselves doing the former and other people experience us doing the latter. Everyone functions this way, which is how we get flamewars where everyone feels like the others (a) started it, and (b) did worse.