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> Who here is writing software which runs on Linux, yet needs to be running Windows while they do it? I do, because desktop Linux is a pile of burning garbage.

> Who here is writing software which runs on Linux, yet needs to be running Windows while they do it? I do, because desktop Linux is a pile of burning garbage. Do we really have to reiterate this point every time? Never been happier in my job then the day I realized I can run my full Linux dev environment on Windows. If you folks like spending your free time configuring Linux or virtual boxes on Windows, feel free to do so. But please don't act like "you just don't understand". I don't wanna debug the OS in my free time, I would rather go hiking.

dkersten 5y ago
> desktop Linux is a pile of burning garbage. Purely subjective. I personally think that Windows is a pile of burning garbage, YMMV obviously. My own desktop linux experience in the past ~5 or so years has actually been better than my Windows experience. Nowadays, I use a mix of Linux and OS X with a lot more time spent on Linux[1] and I'm very happy. The only thing I consider perhaps installing Windows for some day is games, but between SteamOS and Proton, even that is very low on my priority list and if I did want to do it, I'd probably install it in a VM with GPU passthrough rather than running it directly. I've been using Linux in various capacities (at home, not just on servers) since maybe 2006 or 2007, sometimes as my primary system, sometimes dual booting, sometimes in VirtualBox, but I've pretty much switched away from Windows entirely (last time I had a Windows install was 2015) and while I have a Macbook I use, my primary machine is a Dell XPS running Linux. I wouldn't even consider using Windows anymore, I've never been happier than when I left it behind for good. > If you folks like spending your free time configuring Linux I see people who don't use Linux say this, but its just not true. I spend exactly zero time configuring Linux, outside a half a day of initial setup (which, when I used Windows, is also how long I'd spend setting that up after an initial install) and much of that is largely because I can configure it to suit my particular tastes, not because I have to, outside installing a some stuff from the package manager (but again, I'd have to install the software I want on Windows too). Sure I spend more time on the commandline doing this than you might on Windows, but I prefer the commandline so it feels largely a choice rather than a necessity. I spent just as much time "fiddling" with drivers and settings on my last install of Windows as I have with my current install of Linux. I actually have a very low tolerance for dealing with shit not working. > I don't wanna debug the OS in my free time I've had more bugs in my last year of using Windows than I have in my previous year of using Linux. I've had to debug more Windows issues on family members laptops than I've ever had on my current Linux laptop. I personally don't want to deal with all the live tiles and advertisements that Windows had on my mothers laptop. With Linux, I have nothing that I don't want (and if a distro installs stuff I don't want by default, its usually trivial to remove). [1] As of about 2 years ago, prior to that the split was reversed, but that was largely due to my work at the time.
- swayvil 5y ago
  I installed Linux for a couple old ladies. Debian (Mate) on old desktops so they could browse the web and write. Zero issues. Fast and dead stable. They love it. And installation was a no-brainer. One service call, dead power supply, in 6 years.
  - girvo 5y ago
    My non technical girlfriends main PC is a 2011ish iMac running Mint. She loves it, zero issues, has never even needed me to look at it. Surprisingly stable for how old a machine it is. Reckon I’ll swap in an SSD at some point because the decade old spinning rust has to be on its last legs at this point.
    - dspillett 5y ago
      > Reckon I’ll swap in an SSD [for the] decade old spinning rust I don't know if Mint's arrangement will be as sensitive to it as Windows, but when we swapped an old SSD of mine into a friend's laptop the boost it was enough to quickly take it from “this thing needs to go in the bin after a meeting with a lump hammer” to being her main workhorse.
- dkersten 5y ago
  I should add that the only times I do end up "tinkering" with my Linux setup is when I do very out of the ordinary stuff, that is either not easily done in Windows or would require an equal amount of tinkering. For example, much of my "first day" setup is because I like a keyboard-centric environment, so I set up Sway (with a semi-non-standard config) and related things. Manjaro lets me set up a number of environments with good defaults, if I stick with those, then my initial setup is just down to installing the applications I need (which you also have to do in Windows). Its only when I want to do non-standard out of the ordinary or highly customised stuff to suit my preferences that I may need to tinker, but if I have a non-standard workflow on Windows, I also have to tinker. To get a tiling-WM style keyboard first experience under Windows, I also had to tinker and configure and install stuff, and, at least last I used Windows, I never quite had the control to get the workflow I wanted, so I actually spent more time tinkering (and then giving up and going with the closest match I could get) than I do on Linux, where the tools are replaceable and configurable enough to get pretty close to what I want without too much work. So I only tinker when I choose to, in order to customise things that are either not possible in Windows, or would require just as much (or even more) tinkering on Windows. That's not a con for Linux, if anything its a pro. Its purely optional. The only parts where people may spend time tinkering with Linux that I'd consider a con is to get unsupported hardware to work, but that's only easier on Windows if the hardware comes with Windows drivers. If there are no good Windows drivers available, your out of luck and no amount of tinkering will likely get it working. But its been years since this has been something I needed to do on Linux (but I also do a quick search online to check that my hardware has Linux drivers before buying hardware, but those 5 minutes are hardly "tinkering"). Interestingly, I recently bought a cheap drawing tablet and it actually works better on Linux than it does on OS X when using the official drivers (but Linux default tablet drivers support basic functionality out of the box and the OSS Digimend drivers may be getting support soon to, going by the github issues).
jasonjayr 5y ago
Some of us are also unwilling to put up with Microsoft's increasing app-ification of the OS, and are willing to put up with a little jankiness in order to ensure we are on a free software stack. And we still have time for hiking.
- emptyfile 5y ago
  Well good for you people. For me, when I buy a new laptop and half the drivers aren't working, that's an immediate deal breaker. I literally won't allow myself to get into that situation again, not for love or money.
  - trelane 5y ago
    I'd you buy a Linux laptop and it's not working out of the box, you should return it.
stevesimmons 5y ago
> Who here is writing software which runs on Linux, yet needs to be running Windows while they do it? Anyone whose job also involves writing Word docs, PPT presentations, Excel spreadsheets and Visio diagrams, and communicating via Teams. The web versions are very much second-class citizens to the Windows applications. > desktop Linux is a pile of burning garbage That's not my experience at all. I have two nearly identical Dell XPS13 laptop. My Windows 11 laptop is considerably more unstable than the Ubuntu 21.10 one. Now I'm in Windows most of the time, I am constantly reminded of little Win annoyances... For instance, inability to rename an open file. Or updates. Updates on the Ubuntu one take a few seconds, and rarely need a reboot. Updates on the Windows one take more like 20 minutes and always need a reboot, which itself takes 5 minutes or so.
- teh_klev 5y ago
  > For instance, inability to rename an open file. That depends on whether the app that opened a file holds a lock or not. For example you can rename an open file in notepad or VSCode.
  - nikau 5y ago
    Its an architectural difference by locking filename rather than the inode, and its one of the most annoying "features" of Windows. Maybe there are some apps that release the lock, but 99% of windows apps lock the filename, and its part of the "reboot after installation" dance for a lot of things.
girvo 5y ago
I agree! Which is why I dislike Windows as well: I’ve lost too much of my life to debugging it’s arcane issues. Even macOS is starting to grate at times the last few years for similar reasons. I don’t think I like any desktop OSes these days, but running Ubuntu requires the least effort for what I do (and basically no debugging, at least for the last few years), so between it and my Mac it’s been a bit better. I just had to forcibly uninstall wireless drivers to attempt to upgrade them (with multiple reboot cycles in between, yuck) all to attempt to fix wifi issues (following advice from Metabox’s support team) on my Windows laptop. It didn’t work. Still garbage. Works great under Ubuntu though.
- coldpie 5y ago
  At this point, all three platforms are their own unique dumpster fires. Everyone has carved out their little living spaces in the corners of their preferred dumpsters, and denigrating others because they prefer this dumpster instead of that dumpster isn't really interesting or productive. The only winning move is not to play. Throw your computer in the trash, go for a hike, and never come back.
  - teh_klev 5y ago
    Thank you. I use Windows and Linux daily for development and both provide equal amounts of FFfffffuuuuu....!! moments.

dkersten 5y ago

> desktop Linux is a pile of burning garbage. Purely subjective. I personally think that Windows is a pile of burning garbage, YMMV obviously. My own desktop linux experience in the past ~5 or so years has actually been better than my Windows experience. Nowadays, I use a mix of Linux and OS X with a lot more time spent on Linux[1] and I'm very happy. The only thing I consider perhaps installing Windows for some day is games, but between SteamOS and Proton, even that is very low on my priority list and if I did want to do it, I'd probably install it in a VM with GPU passthrough rather than running it directly. I've been using Linux in various capacities (at home, not just on servers) since maybe 2006 or 2007, sometimes as my primary system, sometimes dual booting, sometimes in VirtualBox, but I've pretty much switched away from Windows entirely (last time I had a Windows install was 2015) and while I have a Macbook I use, my primary machine is a Dell XPS running Linux. I wouldn't even consider using Windows anymore, I've never been happier than when I left it behind for good. > If you folks like spending your free time configuring Linux I see people who don't use Linux say this, but its just not true. I spend exactly zero time configuring Linux, outside a half a day of initial setup (which, when I used Windows, is also how long I'd spend setting that up after an initial install) and much of that is largely because I can configure it to suit my particular tastes, not because I have to, outside installing a some stuff from the package manager (but again, I'd have to install the software I want on Windows too). Sure I spend more time on the commandline doing this than you might on Windows, but I prefer the commandline so it feels largely a choice rather than a necessity. I spent just as much time "fiddling" with drivers and settings on my last install of Windows as I have with my current install of Linux. I actually have a very low tolerance for dealing with shit not working. > I don't wanna debug the OS in my free time I've had more bugs in my last year of using Windows than I have in my previous year of using Linux. I've had to debug more Windows issues on family members laptops than I've ever had on my current Linux laptop. I personally don't want to deal with all the live tiles and advertisements that Windows had on my mothers laptop. With Linux, I have nothing that I don't want (and if a distro installs stuff I don't want by default, its usually trivial to remove). [1] As of about 2 years ago, prior to that the split was reversed, but that was largely due to my work at the time.

swayvil 5y ago
I installed Linux for a couple old ladies. Debian (Mate) on old desktops so they could browse the web and write. Zero issues. Fast and dead stable. They love it. And installation was a no-brainer. One service call, dead power supply, in 6 years.
- girvo 5y ago
  My non technical girlfriends main PC is a 2011ish iMac running Mint. She loves it, zero issues, has never even needed me to look at it. Surprisingly stable for how old a machine it is. Reckon I’ll swap in an SSD at some point because the decade old spinning rust has to be on its last legs at this point.
  - dspillett 5y ago
    > Reckon I’ll swap in an SSD [for the] decade old spinning rust I don't know if Mint's arrangement will be as sensitive to it as Windows, but when we swapped an old SSD of mine into a friend's laptop the boost it was enough to quickly take it from “this thing needs to go in the bin after a meeting with a lump hammer” to being her main workhorse.
dkersten 5y ago
I should add that the only times I do end up "tinkering" with my Linux setup is when I do very out of the ordinary stuff, that is either not easily done in Windows or would require an equal amount of tinkering. For example, much of my "first day" setup is because I like a keyboard-centric environment, so I set up Sway (with a semi-non-standard config) and related things. Manjaro lets me set up a number of environments with good defaults, if I stick with those, then my initial setup is just down to installing the applications I need (which you also have to do in Windows). Its only when I want to do non-standard out of the ordinary or highly customised stuff to suit my preferences that I may need to tinker, but if I have a non-standard workflow on Windows, I also have to tinker. To get a tiling-WM style keyboard first experience under Windows, I also had to tinker and configure and install stuff, and, at least last I used Windows, I never quite had the control to get the workflow I wanted, so I actually spent more time tinkering (and then giving up and going with the closest match I could get) than I do on Linux, where the tools are replaceable and configurable enough to get pretty close to what I want without too much work. So I only tinker when I choose to, in order to customise things that are either not possible in Windows, or would require just as much (or even more) tinkering on Windows. That's not a con for Linux, if anything its a pro. Its purely optional. The only parts where people may spend time tinkering with Linux that I'd consider a con is to get unsupported hardware to work, but that's only easier on Windows if the hardware comes with Windows drivers. If there are no good Windows drivers available, your out of luck and no amount of tinkering will likely get it working. But its been years since this has been something I needed to do on Linux (but I also do a quick search online to check that my hardware has Linux drivers before buying hardware, but those 5 minutes are hardly "tinkering"). Interestingly, I recently bought a cheap drawing tablet and it actually works better on Linux than it does on OS X when using the official drivers (but Linux default tablet drivers support basic functionality out of the box and the OSS Digimend drivers may be getting support soon to, going by the github issues).

jasonjayr 5y ago

Some of us are also unwilling to put up with Microsoft's increasing app-ification of the OS, and are willing to put up with a little jankiness in order to ensure we are on a free software stack. And we still have time for hiking.

emptyfile 5y ago
Well good for you people. For me, when I buy a new laptop and half the drivers aren't working, that's an immediate deal breaker. I literally won't allow myself to get into that situation again, not for love or money.
- trelane 5y ago
  I'd you buy a Linux laptop and it's not working out of the box, you should return it.

stevesimmons 5y ago

> Who here is writing software which runs on Linux, yet needs to be running Windows while they do it? Anyone whose job also involves writing Word docs, PPT presentations, Excel spreadsheets and Visio diagrams, and communicating via Teams. The web versions are very much second-class citizens to the Windows applications. > desktop Linux is a pile of burning garbage That's not my experience at all. I have two nearly identical Dell XPS13 laptop. My Windows 11 laptop is considerably more unstable than the Ubuntu 21.10 one. Now I'm in Windows most of the time, I am constantly reminded of little Win annoyances... For instance, inability to rename an open file. Or updates. Updates on the Ubuntu one take a few seconds, and rarely need a reboot. Updates on the Windows one take more like 20 minutes and always need a reboot, which itself takes 5 minutes or so.

teh_klev 5y ago
> For instance, inability to rename an open file. That depends on whether the app that opened a file holds a lock or not. For example you can rename an open file in notepad or VSCode.
- nikau 5y ago
  Its an architectural difference by locking filename rather than the inode, and its one of the most annoying "features" of Windows. Maybe there are some apps that release the lock, but 99% of windows apps lock the filename, and its part of the "reboot after installation" dance for a lot of things.

girvo 5y ago

I agree! Which is why I dislike Windows as well: I’ve lost too much of my life to debugging it’s arcane issues. Even macOS is starting to grate at times the last few years for similar reasons. I don’t think I like any desktop OSes these days, but running Ubuntu requires the least effort for what I do (and basically no debugging, at least for the last few years), so between it and my Mac it’s been a bit better. I just had to forcibly uninstall wireless drivers to attempt to upgrade them (with multiple reboot cycles in between, yuck) all to attempt to fix wifi issues (following advice from Metabox’s support team) on my Windows laptop. It didn’t work. Still garbage. Works great under Ubuntu though.

coldpie 5y ago
At this point, all three platforms are their own unique dumpster fires. Everyone has carved out their little living spaces in the corners of their preferred dumpsters, and denigrating others because they prefer this dumpster instead of that dumpster isn't really interesting or productive. The only winning move is not to play. Throw your computer in the trash, go for a hike, and never come back.
- teh_klev 5y ago
  Thank you. I use Windows and Linux daily for development and both provide equal amounts of FFfffffuuuuu....!! moments.