4 ms·

> They can pay a senior engineer $350k in the US, or an equivalent experience senior engineer $100k in Europe. Why can they do this?

ctvo 5y ago
Because the rest of Europe pays 80k.
- bwb 5y ago
  Very fair salary, especially when you take into account they have real health care, real social safty nets, etc.
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    Again, you’re patronizing people outside the US telling them that they should be happy with lower salary. US tech workers have their healthcare paid in addition to their high compensation. Someone earning 120k in London might earn $350k in the US. It’s not up to you to tell the little Europeans that they shouldn’t want their missing $230k because their healthcare and public services make up for it.
    - bwb 5y ago
      I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. You are paid based on a mix of skills, taxes, other costs, job market, and where you live. Pay is not some absolute, it has a lot of factors (many I didn't mention). The ultimate question is are you happy with your pay and is it fair? Done :) There isn't some magical number out there and anything lower than that means someone isn't being fair to you.
      - da39a3ee 5y ago
        > I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. Funny that my comment was so heavily upvoted. You are patronizing people, and I accuse you of it deliberately, knowing both that it is an accusation you may not welcome, and that it is difficult to infer from text-based communication. I suggest you pause and consider that this is a recurring accusation with several upvotes, and that you may not realize that you are being patronizing.
        bwb 5y ago
        lol, I am not sure what to tell you here, I wish you the best of luck :)
        dang 5y ago
        Please stop posting flamewar comments to HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - 0xy 5y ago
    Healthcare isn't really a great argument. Aside from the low hanging argument that healthcare is covered or subsidized by most tech companies in the US, the cost of healthcare pales in comparison to the difference between $100k and $350k. The value of healthcare is not $250,000 per year per person. It's not even 1/10th of that. As for safety nets, that depends on personal risk tolerance. As an experienced developer, it's not particularly difficult to find work. Even an average one. We're talking about a massive difference in pay. That difference could amount to literally millions of dollars in retirement for your family.
  - ABeeSea 5y ago
    My annual max out of pocket cost for healthcare is $5,000. Once I pay the $5k, everything else for free for the rest of the year. How is that worth a $100-200K salary difference?
    - emteycz 5y ago
      It's not worth it. They also forget to mention that in most EU countries you pay ~30% of your income before taxes for healthcare (in addition to taxes). By my calculations, average software engineer pays 10x more for healthcare in EU than in the USA - in absolute numbers.
    - anotherman554 5y ago
      That's not exactly how health insurance works. The insurer can always say something the doctor did is not covered, or something the doctor says you need is not covered. Or that, while a procedure is covered under the policy, you aren't sick enough for the insurer to consider it medically necessary, even if the doctor thinks it is.
bwb 5y ago
This is mostly about FANGs and they can do it because they make $1m plus in revenue per employee. These are senior positions so don't think this is normal. Average dev salaries are $60k to $150k in USA depending on a ton of factors. The USA also has no social safety net so it's like comparing oranges to apples when you look at parts of Asia or Europe :)
- da39a3ee 5y ago
  But the FAANGS have offices in Europe and pay those employees less, unless I’m mistaken. In which case you can’t argue that US has FAANGS and others don’t.
  - bwb 5y ago
    Yes, but the job market is different there as are the cost structure... it is not an equal comparison. For example, in the USA you are looking at about 22% for taxes on an employees salary that the company pays. In Europe that can be as high as 50%. Just one example...
pb7 5y ago
They can do whatever they want. You accuse others of being patronizing but your sense of entitlement is polarizing. It would do you well to realize that the US pays a lot for software engineering as a result of the same societal structure, policies, and priorities that cause the problems Europeans love picking on (e.g. healthcare, paid time off, parental leave, etc).

ctvo 5y ago

Because the rest of Europe pays 80k.

bwb 5y ago
Very fair salary, especially when you take into account they have real health care, real social safty nets, etc.
- da39a3ee 5y ago
  Again, you’re patronizing people outside the US telling them that they should be happy with lower salary. US tech workers have their healthcare paid in addition to their high compensation. Someone earning 120k in London might earn $350k in the US. It’s not up to you to tell the little Europeans that they shouldn’t want their missing $230k because their healthcare and public services make up for it.
  - bwb 5y ago
    I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. You are paid based on a mix of skills, taxes, other costs, job market, and where you live. Pay is not some absolute, it has a lot of factors (many I didn't mention). The ultimate question is are you happy with your pay and is it fair? Done :) There isn't some magical number out there and anything lower than that means someone isn't being fair to you.
    - da39a3ee 5y ago
      > I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. Funny that my comment was so heavily upvoted. You are patronizing people, and I accuse you of it deliberately, knowing both that it is an accusation you may not welcome, and that it is difficult to infer from text-based communication. I suggest you pause and consider that this is a recurring accusation with several upvotes, and that you may not realize that you are being patronizing.
      - bwb 5y ago
        lol, I am not sure what to tell you here, I wish you the best of luck :)
      - dang 5y ago
        Please stop posting flamewar comments to HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- 0xy 5y ago
  Healthcare isn't really a great argument. Aside from the low hanging argument that healthcare is covered or subsidized by most tech companies in the US, the cost of healthcare pales in comparison to the difference between $100k and $350k. The value of healthcare is not $250,000 per year per person. It's not even 1/10th of that. As for safety nets, that depends on personal risk tolerance. As an experienced developer, it's not particularly difficult to find work. Even an average one. We're talking about a massive difference in pay. That difference could amount to literally millions of dollars in retirement for your family.
- ABeeSea 5y ago
  My annual max out of pocket cost for healthcare is $5,000. Once I pay the $5k, everything else for free for the rest of the year. How is that worth a $100-200K salary difference?
  - emteycz 5y ago
    It's not worth it. They also forget to mention that in most EU countries you pay ~30% of your income before taxes for healthcare (in addition to taxes). By my calculations, average software engineer pays 10x more for healthcare in EU than in the USA - in absolute numbers.
  - anotherman554 5y ago
    That's not exactly how health insurance works. The insurer can always say something the doctor did is not covered, or something the doctor says you need is not covered. Or that, while a procedure is covered under the policy, you aren't sick enough for the insurer to consider it medically necessary, even if the doctor thinks it is.

bwb 5y ago

This is mostly about FANGs and they can do it because they make $1m plus in revenue per employee. These are senior positions so don't think this is normal. Average dev salaries are $60k to $150k in USA depending on a ton of factors. The USA also has no social safety net so it's like comparing oranges to apples when you look at parts of Asia or Europe :)

da39a3ee 5y ago
But the FAANGS have offices in Europe and pay those employees less, unless I’m mistaken. In which case you can’t argue that US has FAANGS and others don’t.
- bwb 5y ago
  Yes, but the job market is different there as are the cost structure... it is not an equal comparison. For example, in the USA you are looking at about 22% for taxes on an employees salary that the company pays. In Europe that can be as high as 50%. Just one example...

pb7 5y ago

They can do whatever they want. You accuse others of being patronizing but your sense of entitlement is polarizing. It would do you well to realize that the US pays a lot for software engineering as a result of the same societal structure, policies, and priorities that cause the problems Europeans love picking on (e.g. healthcare, paid time off, parental leave, etc).