7 ms·

I don't buy it, US tech salaries continue to skyrocket and we're nearly two years into pandemic conditions. Just over the last 6-9 months, salaries have marked

by 0xy 5y ago

I don't buy it, US tech salaries continue to skyrocket and we're nearly two years into pandemic conditions. Just over the last 6-9 months, salaries have markedly jumped. There's still a huge thirst for talent that isn't being quenched, and global pools don't help either. Facebook, Google and others have satellite offices all over to soak up talent elsewhere, but they're still ultra competitive in the US. They can pay a senior engineer $350k in the US, or an equivalent experience senior engineer $100k in Europe. There is no shift occurring though. They're still hiring like crazy everywhere. There's no place like the US for tech workers. Nowhere even comes close, even on a CoL-adjusted basis. European developers get screwed. South American developers get screwed. Asian developers get screwed. US developers don't get screwed.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
Still, I find the quality of life in Spain preferable. We have a government health system paid through taxes, no guns on the streets, not much pollution, amazing public transport, 4 weeks holidays and good weather. I prefer having those things as a safety net instead of having to pay for them myself. I really love not needing a car here at all, I haven't driven in years. I was recently offered a job in silicon valley but despite the fact that I would make several times my current wage and the language would be better for me (I'm not a native here), I wouldn't consider it. Money isn't everything (and silicon valley is crazy expensive, it wouldn't amount to that much). It's about quality of life for me.
- qaq 5y ago
  I think you are really onto something truth is if you have 100K remote job in Spain you will hav better lifestyle than having 300K job in SV. If I only could convince my wife to move :(.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    I'm nowhere near 100K in Spain but I wouldn't make 300K in that job in SV either :) I think it would work out worse in SV though in terms of spending power. With the exception of tech toys which tend to be around the same price everywhere so relatively expensive in Spain. But I'd give up a lot. Being half a world away from family and also the other drawbacks I mentioned. No, I'm fine here.
    - qaq 5y ago
      I think with people getting more comfortable with remote teams getting a job for US entity from Spain should become easier.
      - GekkePrutser 5y ago
        It's possible, but there is the time difference thing, especially when it comes to the east coast. We have 6 hours to the east coast, 9 to the west coast. In Spain people like to start and finish late (having dinner at 9pm is normal!) but this difference is uncomfortably much. It's not really handy if you have to work US time, bring your kids to work, have a social life, etc. In my current job we're the "inbetweeners" between the India and US teams. We keep in touch with both because India and the US don't normally collaborate much due to an even worse timezone situation. Also, why would they bother paying US salaries to employees stationed in Spain? When I moved here from Ireland (also EU) my salary actually went down a bit :) And they already scaled me up a lot within my salary class, if I had come in here 'off the street' I would have made even less. Multinationals already have this scenario a lot and they pay local wages. People are willing to work here for local wages. And local conditions are mandatory here if you live here. Working for a US company and for US conditions while living here will not fly by EU law (the only exception is NGOs like the UN). So I don't think it will change too much to be honest. If anything it will provide more downward pressure on US salaries than upward pressure on the ones here.
    - TulliusCicero 5y ago
      > I'm nowhere near 100K in Spain but I wouldn't make 300K in that job in SV either :) I wouldn't discount yourself. A lot of people have this idea that becoming a senior engineer somewhere like Google must mean you're super elite, but as someone who's worked at Google for several years, I really don't think that's true. Google developers as a group are quite solid of course, but real 'rockstar' devs who just blow you away with their skill are a small minority even here.
- eb0la 5y ago
  Where do you live? If you have kids in Madrid it is almost mandatory to have a car. Imho the best place to live in Spain is in a 'capital de provicia': you have all the services the law mandates but it is not crowded.
  - _abox 5y ago
    I live in Barcelona city but I have no kids. I often see whole school classes on the metro though, going on school trips. I think the metro is just fine for them. Also, walking everywhere is really feasible. I stopped using the metro for everything due to Corona. Though I picked it up again after getting the vaccine, I still retained the habit of walking. Barcelona is nice and compact, I can walk everywhere within an hour or so. Not sure about Madrid, I've only visited. If I had a car I wouldn't even know where to leave it to be honest. In my area there's no parking available except some highly expensive garages.
bwb 5y ago
Why do you think developers are getting screwed in those places? I've worked with tons of developers in South America and they were very happy with their life, their benefits, their pay... Confused on why they are getting "screwed".
- da39a3ee 5y ago
  Because they're not receiving the same CoL adjusted compensation as Americans. Your attitude sounds a little patronizing.
  - bwb 5y ago
    Sure they are, like I said their pay is perfectly fine and kinda blown away you think it isn't. I don't understand what the complaint is on pay as they are making great money. What is the specific complaint you have or that you see? This is text based comments, inferring attitude is a huge black hole of impossibility :)
    - 0xy 5y ago
      Why is it okay to be paid $100,000 for the exact same job as your equivalent counterparts in the US make 3.5x for? That's millions if you save the majority for retirement. It could be the difference between nursing homes and an independent travel-filled retirement at a reasonable age. Of course, I'm not here to make decisions for anyone. And people have personal reasons to not pursue immigration, that's fine. They're making a steep trade-off, though.
      - bwb 5y ago
        Yes I would be totally ok with that. Especially if that $100k include a real pension when I retire that I can depend on, no threat of my kids getting shot at school, health insurance that covers me when I get sick without having to go into bankruptcy, bike paths over the entire country, paternity for when I have a kid, subsidized child care for everyone so parents can be more sane, etc etc... You think this is just about talent and it is not. It is combination of so many things such as taxes, social care, government ideology, culture in that country, retirement/pensions, cost of living in that location, minimum wage anchoring, how much it costs to dismiss someone, etc... Also, barely anyone in the USA makes 350k, so this entire argument is kinda moot. Barely any developers make $350,000 so this comparison is just kinda crazy. Even in the USA average salary is $177k for Senior executives: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-total-usa https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-t...
da39a3ee 5y ago
> They can pay a senior engineer $350k in the US, or an equivalent experience senior engineer $100k in Europe. Why can they do this?
- ctvo 5y ago
  Because the rest of Europe pays 80k.
  - bwb 5y ago
    Very fair salary, especially when you take into account they have real health care, real social safty nets, etc.
    - da39a3ee 5y ago
      Again, you’re patronizing people outside the US telling them that they should be happy with lower salary. US tech workers have their healthcare paid in addition to their high compensation. Someone earning 120k in London might earn $350k in the US. It’s not up to you to tell the little Europeans that they shouldn’t want their missing $230k because their healthcare and public services make up for it.
      - bwb 5y ago
        I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. You are paid based on a mix of skills, taxes, other costs, job market, and where you live. Pay is not some absolute, it has a lot of factors (many I didn't mention). The ultimate question is are you happy with your pay and is it fair? Done :) There isn't some magical number out there and anything lower than that means someone isn't being fair to you.
        da39a3ee 5y ago
        > I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. Funny that my comment was so heavily upvoted. You are patronizing people, and I accuse you of it deliberately, knowing both that it is an accusation you may not welcome, and that it is difficult to infer from text-based communication. I suggest you pause and consider that this is a recurring accusation with several upvotes, and that you may not realize that you are being patronizing.
qaq 5y ago
It's not that drastic anymore people getting 350 total comp in US would get 200K Euro total comp in say Dublin, Ireland
- e4325f 5y ago
  bollocks
  - qaq 5y ago
    check levels.fyi
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      levels.fyi proves otherwise.
      - qaq 5y ago
        Who in your imagination is making 350K in SV? In Dublin: Workday P4 180K EURO e.g. 207K USD Stripe L2 200K Euro e.g. 230K USD My mate just accepted Workday offer that had 200K signup bonus

by 0xy 5y ago

GekkePrutser 5y ago

Still, I find the quality of life in Spain preferable. We have a government health system paid through taxes, no guns on the streets, not much pollution, amazing public transport, 4 weeks holidays and good weather. I prefer having those things as a safety net instead of having to pay for them myself. I really love not needing a car here at all, I haven't driven in years. I was recently offered a job in silicon valley but despite the fact that I would make several times my current wage and the language would be better for me (I'm not a native here), I wouldn't consider it. Money isn't everything (and silicon valley is crazy expensive, it wouldn't amount to that much). It's about quality of life for me.

qaq 5y ago
I think you are really onto something truth is if you have 100K remote job in Spain you will hav better lifestyle than having 300K job in SV. If I only could convince my wife to move :(.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  I'm nowhere near 100K in Spain but I wouldn't make 300K in that job in SV either :) I think it would work out worse in SV though in terms of spending power. With the exception of tech toys which tend to be around the same price everywhere so relatively expensive in Spain. But I'd give up a lot. Being half a world away from family and also the other drawbacks I mentioned. No, I'm fine here.
  - qaq 5y ago
    I think with people getting more comfortable with remote teams getting a job for US entity from Spain should become easier.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      It's possible, but there is the time difference thing, especially when it comes to the east coast. We have 6 hours to the east coast, 9 to the west coast. In Spain people like to start and finish late (having dinner at 9pm is normal!) but this difference is uncomfortably much. It's not really handy if you have to work US time, bring your kids to work, have a social life, etc. In my current job we're the "inbetweeners" between the India and US teams. We keep in touch with both because India and the US don't normally collaborate much due to an even worse timezone situation. Also, why would they bother paying US salaries to employees stationed in Spain? When I moved here from Ireland (also EU) my salary actually went down a bit :) And they already scaled me up a lot within my salary class, if I had come in here 'off the street' I would have made even less. Multinationals already have this scenario a lot and they pay local wages. People are willing to work here for local wages. And local conditions are mandatory here if you live here. Working for a US company and for US conditions while living here will not fly by EU law (the only exception is NGOs like the UN). So I don't think it will change too much to be honest. If anything it will provide more downward pressure on US salaries than upward pressure on the ones here.
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    > I'm nowhere near 100K in Spain but I wouldn't make 300K in that job in SV either :) I wouldn't discount yourself. A lot of people have this idea that becoming a senior engineer somewhere like Google must mean you're super elite, but as someone who's worked at Google for several years, I really don't think that's true. Google developers as a group are quite solid of course, but real 'rockstar' devs who just blow you away with their skill are a small minority even here.
eb0la 5y ago
Where do you live? If you have kids in Madrid it is almost mandatory to have a car. Imho the best place to live in Spain is in a 'capital de provicia': you have all the services the law mandates but it is not crowded.
- _abox 5y ago
  I live in Barcelona city but I have no kids. I often see whole school classes on the metro though, going on school trips. I think the metro is just fine for them. Also, walking everywhere is really feasible. I stopped using the metro for everything due to Corona. Though I picked it up again after getting the vaccine, I still retained the habit of walking. Barcelona is nice and compact, I can walk everywhere within an hour or so. Not sure about Madrid, I've only visited. If I had a car I wouldn't even know where to leave it to be honest. In my area there's no parking available except some highly expensive garages.

bwb 5y ago

Why do you think developers are getting screwed in those places? I've worked with tons of developers in South America and they were very happy with their life, their benefits, their pay... Confused on why they are getting "screwed".

da39a3ee 5y ago
Because they're not receiving the same CoL adjusted compensation as Americans. Your attitude sounds a little patronizing.
- bwb 5y ago
  Sure they are, like I said their pay is perfectly fine and kinda blown away you think it isn't. I don't understand what the complaint is on pay as they are making great money. What is the specific complaint you have or that you see? This is text based comments, inferring attitude is a huge black hole of impossibility :)
  - 0xy 5y ago
    Why is it okay to be paid $100,000 for the exact same job as your equivalent counterparts in the US make 3.5x for? That's millions if you save the majority for retirement. It could be the difference between nursing homes and an independent travel-filled retirement at a reasonable age. Of course, I'm not here to make decisions for anyone. And people have personal reasons to not pursue immigration, that's fine. They're making a steep trade-off, though.
    - bwb 5y ago
      Yes I would be totally ok with that. Especially if that $100k include a real pension when I retire that I can depend on, no threat of my kids getting shot at school, health insurance that covers me when I get sick without having to go into bankruptcy, bike paths over the entire country, paternity for when I have a kid, subsidized child care for everyone so parents can be more sane, etc etc... You think this is just about talent and it is not. It is combination of so many things such as taxes, social care, government ideology, culture in that country, retirement/pensions, cost of living in that location, minimum wage anchoring, how much it costs to dismiss someone, etc... Also, barely anyone in the USA makes 350k, so this entire argument is kinda moot. Barely any developers make $350,000 so this comparison is just kinda crazy. Even in the USA average salary is $177k for Senior executives: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-total-usa https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-t...

da39a3ee 5y ago

> They can pay a senior engineer $350k in the US, or an equivalent experience senior engineer $100k in Europe. Why can they do this?

ctvo 5y ago
Because the rest of Europe pays 80k.
- bwb 5y ago
  Very fair salary, especially when you take into account they have real health care, real social safty nets, etc.
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    Again, you’re patronizing people outside the US telling them that they should be happy with lower salary. US tech workers have their healthcare paid in addition to their high compensation. Someone earning 120k in London might earn $350k in the US. It’s not up to you to tell the little Europeans that they shouldn’t want their missing $230k because their healthcare and public services make up for it.
    - bwb 5y ago
      I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. You are paid based on a mix of skills, taxes, other costs, job market, and where you live. Pay is not some absolute, it has a lot of factors (many I didn't mention). The ultimate question is are you happy with your pay and is it fair? Done :) There isn't some magical number out there and anything lower than that means someone isn't being fair to you.
      - da39a3ee 5y ago
        > I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. Funny that my comment was so heavily upvoted. You are patronizing people, and I accuse you of it deliberately, knowing both that it is an accusation you may not welcome, and that it is difficult to infer from text-based communication. I suggest you pause and consider that this is a recurring accusation with several upvotes, and that you may not realize that you are being patronizing.

qaq 5y ago

It's not that drastic anymore people getting 350 total comp in US would get 200K Euro total comp in say Dublin, Ireland

e4325f 5y ago
bollocks
- qaq 5y ago
  check levels.fyi
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    levels.fyi proves otherwise.
    - qaq 5y ago
      Who in your imagination is making 350K in SV? In Dublin: Workday P4 180K EURO e.g. 207K USD Stripe L2 200K Euro e.g. 230K USD My mate just accepted Workday offer that had 200K signup bonus