6 ms·

I find this a bit far fetched, with as many problems as the USA has it still has a solid reputation as a place you can come and make a new life with low corrupt

by bwb 5y ago

I find this a bit far fetched, with as many problems as the USA has it still has a solid reputation as a place you can come and make a new life with low corruption, a justice system, free speech, affordability, and on the local/state level a government/bureaucracy that still works. Same goes for Germany and countries that provide a high quality of life for their people. I understand the idea, but there is a reason people want to leave places that are "broken".

Oddskar 5y ago
I think you overestimate the reputation of the US and underestimate how much it has rapidly declined the last decades. I also think you underestimate how much effort it takes to really start over and become properly integrated in a new country. It is a very enticing prospect for many to side-step this issue entirely and still get an almost unfathomable salary for some countries.
- bwb 5y ago
  I've personally been remote since 1999 and run teams from around the world since then. The largest was a company I grew to ~130+ people over 18 countries. I know you are underestimating the rep of the USA outside of politics and the dysfunction :) Remote is a great opportunity and one I've used at every company I've built. But, the thing that draws global talent is money, and American companies have all the money. If anything this is going to hurt local companies who can't compete for top talent hiring out of the USA :) I will note, i think Canada is doing a great job of being pro-immigrant in a way the USA can't and American companies are opening lots of offices and hiring there.
  - Oddskar 5y ago
    > I know you are underestimating the rep of the USA outside of politics and the dysfunction I don’t really understand. Why would I disregard “the dysfunction”? That’s very much at the core of what shapes the rest of the worlds perception of the US. Agree on the second point though. It does (potentially) globalise the job market quite a bit.
    - bwb 5y ago
      Tons of people want to move to the USA for nature, stability, pay, freedom of expression, freedom of speech/religion/life, low corruption, house prices are low compared to many many places, mixing pot, opportunity, american dream etc... The power of the American narrative is huge. I know so many devs in Brazil who want to live to USA or Germany, as well as many other places. Those places have problems at a much higher level than our current stuff.
      - DeathArrow 5y ago
        >Tons of people want to move to the USA for nature, stability, pay, freedom of expression, freedom of speech/religion/life, low corruption, house prices are low compared to many many places, mixing pot, opportunity, american dream etc... High level of crime, too much politics, education too expensive, healthcare too expensive, no public pension funds.
        bwb 5y ago
        Totally agreed with you :) But the key point being narrative around the American dream, freedom of religion/expression, and all the other things I mentioned. Moving to a new place and taking a risk is a feeling based decision. Sure we might dress it up with some logic, but at the end of the day the USA has soft power in spades.
        Oddskar 5y ago
        It has relative soft power. The reason you hear lots of Brazilian devs wanting to move is due to the tremendous problems Brazil is facing. Not all countries have problems to this extent. From a EU-centric perspective the soft power the US have is not that strong.
        bwb 5y ago
        I totally agree with you. I live in Europe. But, globally brand America's brand is quite strong still. And that is my point, don't forget how powerful that brand has been for the last 100 years. It doesn't disappear overnight.
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  And I think you overestimate how much things have rapidly declined. Is the US's heyday in the past? Of course. It is on a decline. But if your entire lens of what is happening in the country is news channels and the Internet, you need a reality check. As Dave Chappelle said, Twitter is not a real place.
  - Oddskar 5y ago
    > But if your entire lens of what is happening in the country is news channels and the Internet, you need a reality check. Not sure what your point is. How do you think people shape their opinions and perceptions on things if not via media and the internet? What would this “reality check” consist of? I would move to the US for a number of years just so I can determine whether I want to move there? Should I read the collected works of David Foster Wallace? It’s perception we’re talking about here. It doesn’t have to be rational nor accurate.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - erect_hacker 5y ago
    this is a terrible take. why comment at all?
- ctvo 5y ago
  > I think you overestimate the reputation of the US and underestimate how much it has rapidly declined the last decades. How has it rapidly declined? Please list the ways. I don't necessarily disagree, but I am curious.
  - jleyank 5y ago
    Behaviour of the conservative side of the country has been grim the last 10+ years, unless you’re white. Overall, the country is right-centre as compared to the western world. Politics is constant yet government is in gridlock. Health care is costly and intermittent being tied to employment. Social cohesion and support isn’t particularly good. But there’s money to be had if you don’t mind the cost.
  - randcraw 5y ago
    These are the biggest universities in America today. None of them existed 50 years ago. They are the future of college education in America. #1 Western Governors University (WGU) North Carolina 121,437 #2 Southern New Hampshire University New Hampshire 104,068 #3 Grand Canyon University Arizona 90,253 #4 Liberty University Virginia 79,152 #5 Ivy Tech Community College - Central Indiana Indiana 72,006
    - Noos 5y ago
      Uh, this makes zero sense. This is just places that are inexpensive to get degrees from because many places now require college degrees for jobs that don't need them. They are not "the future of college education" in any real leadership sense, no more than Coursera is "the future of education."
sweezyjeezy 5y ago
Don't think the article is arguing that 'broken' countries are poised to benefit here? They specifically say "political and monetary stability". The US does not have a monopoly on that worldwide. In terms of affordability - the US is one of the least affordable places - do you have any idea what an entry-level SE salary can get you in other countries?
- bwb 5y ago
  Agreed, but if you read down the list the author notes in that list Panama, Croatia, which while beautiful and stable in some ways... are also knows for corruption and other issues. The USA is very affordable if you look outside of SF/NY and compare it to Western Europe (esp with tech pay). What are you comparing it too?
  - sweezyjeezy 5y ago
    It's certainly affordable with tech pay - but... that's the point of the article isn't it? Tech pay is sky high because US is overvaluing US talent. Most millennials in the US cannot afford to buy a home here. Agreed Panama is a bad example, but not Croatia - it's politically stable, and I don't believe many people leave because of corruption.
    - bwb 5y ago
      I am not sure the US is overvaluing US talent, I am undecided there... The average salary of a millenial is $47k a year, average millennial household makes $71k. The average mortgage payment in the USA is $1,487 ($18k over a year). So 25% to 38% of salary right? I think I did that right but feel free to clarify. Seems doable right? I think the USA is a mess, especially for millennials but when you look at the housing market in Europe for average salaries we are doing really well overall: https://www.statista.com/statistics/237529/price-to-income-ratio-of-housing-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/237529/price-to-income-r... Very few people immigrate from anywhere. It is very hard. I don't think people leave because of corruption, my point being they have higher levels than the USA: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl
cromka 5y ago
> low corruption I’m sorry, what? Ask anyone in NYC what they think of the corruption. Ask them if they feel that the taxes they pay are put to a good use. Ask what they think of MTA, of the unions, of the mafia connections. And ask any expat what they think of lobbying, a.k.a. legal corruption.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  You Americans have no idea how you have it good, do you? If you think NYC is corrupt, let's trade passports, see how you like brasilia.
- bwb 5y ago
  Compare corruption in NYC to India or Thailand or Romania :) A waist high pile of poop is much different from one the size of a skyscraper. I am not saying it doesn't have aspects of corruption, but it is low and solid resources on the local and national level to constantly investigate and make cases. Legalizing corruption through lobbying is a good move. There are other options but better than keeping it underground.
  - DeathArrow 5y ago
    >Compare corruption in NYC to India or Thailand or Romania :) Corruption in Romania and other Eastern European countries is more generalized in the sense that there is more small corruption. Corruption cases in US are more serious.
    - bwb 5y ago
      proof? data? Not backed up by a lot of companies/orgs/data... https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/rou https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/rou https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corruption-index https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corruption-index
- matsuokk 5y ago
  I love paying taxes in NYC. I estimate NYC taxpayers saved me ~$100K in medical bills when I unexpectedly needed surgery and qualified for low-income Medicare coverage. I love that I’m again a heavy contributor to that system and happily so. And I love watching bike lanes built left and right, I love the city buying up empty lots to build parks, I love the Marathon, the “5 Boro” bike tour, the incredible (and heavily subsidized) ferry service, the public school free lunch programs, the vaccine outreach campaigns, the reliable snow removal, and the wonderful collection of libraries and museums and public spaces that are free and open to me. I love that the city cuts long-term lease deals with multi-tenant property owners to guarantee supply of low-income housing. A bunch of my friends grew up in that kind of housing and some of my sweetest neighbors live there now. I think MTA is one of the very BEST features of this or any world-class city — trains run all night! And it makes me super happy whenever I’m going somewhere at 5am and the train is packed with workers in steel-toed boots and jackets with local union patches commuting to the job site. I think my taxes are spent well enough — I know this because I love living here and have never given a serious thought to leaving for tax avoidance or whatever other fake drama is being projected onto this city from afar.
werdnapk 5y ago
Not sure how the rest of the world still views the USA, but as a Canadian the states no longer has a solid reputation for any of those things. The sad thing is that most Americans still believe they're #1 at almost everything.
- bwb 5y ago
  Canadians who read the news and keep abreast of such things would have a bad view of things (as they should). But, the reality is the USA still has all these things even if cracks are appearing. Don't let the hype cycle and media's focus on the bad lose sight of the big picture. I wouldn't expect many Canadians are immigrating anyway as you are in the top 10 well governed countries globally. Agreed, America's biggest problem is that 40% of Americans believe they are #1 at everything :). We should be stealing ideas left and right from other countries and instead we are stagnating under the belief that only we know how to do things.
presentation 5y ago
As an American who lives abroad, I specifically chose to leave because it's a place riddled with corruption, has a rigged justice system, whose political climate stifles free speech, is totally unaffordable in any of the urban centers, and has a depressingly incompetent bureaucracy on the local/state level (I'm looking at you, San Francisco...).

by bwb 5y ago

Oddskar 5y ago

I think you overestimate the reputation of the US and underestimate how much it has rapidly declined the last decades. I also think you underestimate how much effort it takes to really start over and become properly integrated in a new country. It is a very enticing prospect for many to side-step this issue entirely and still get an almost unfathomable salary for some countries.

bwb 5y ago
I've personally been remote since 1999 and run teams from around the world since then. The largest was a company I grew to ~130+ people over 18 countries. I know you are underestimating the rep of the USA outside of politics and the dysfunction :) Remote is a great opportunity and one I've used at every company I've built. But, the thing that draws global talent is money, and American companies have all the money. If anything this is going to hurt local companies who can't compete for top talent hiring out of the USA :) I will note, i think Canada is doing a great job of being pro-immigrant in a way the USA can't and American companies are opening lots of offices and hiring there.
- Oddskar 5y ago
  > I know you are underestimating the rep of the USA outside of politics and the dysfunction I don’t really understand. Why would I disregard “the dysfunction”? That’s very much at the core of what shapes the rest of the worlds perception of the US. Agree on the second point though. It does (potentially) globalise the job market quite a bit.
  - bwb 5y ago
    Tons of people want to move to the USA for nature, stability, pay, freedom of expression, freedom of speech/religion/life, low corruption, house prices are low compared to many many places, mixing pot, opportunity, american dream etc... The power of the American narrative is huge. I know so many devs in Brazil who want to live to USA or Germany, as well as many other places. Those places have problems at a much higher level than our current stuff.
    - DeathArrow 5y ago
      >Tons of people want to move to the USA for nature, stability, pay, freedom of expression, freedom of speech/religion/life, low corruption, house prices are low compared to many many places, mixing pot, opportunity, american dream etc... High level of crime, too much politics, education too expensive, healthcare too expensive, no public pension funds.
      - bwb 5y ago
        Totally agreed with you :) But the key point being narrative around the American dream, freedom of religion/expression, and all the other things I mentioned. Moving to a new place and taking a risk is a feeling based decision. Sure we might dress it up with some logic, but at the end of the day the USA has soft power in spades.
        Oddskar 5y ago
        It has relative soft power. The reason you hear lots of Brazilian devs wanting to move is due to the tremendous problems Brazil is facing. Not all countries have problems to this extent. From a EU-centric perspective the soft power the US have is not that strong.
        bwb 5y ago
        I totally agree with you. I live in Europe. But, globally brand America's brand is quite strong still. And that is my point, don't forget how powerful that brand has been for the last 100 years. It doesn't disappear overnight.
JohnWhigham 5y ago
And I think you overestimate how much things have rapidly declined. Is the US's heyday in the past? Of course. It is on a decline. But if your entire lens of what is happening in the country is news channels and the Internet, you need a reality check. As Dave Chappelle said, Twitter is not a real place.
- Oddskar 5y ago
  > But if your entire lens of what is happening in the country is news channels and the Internet, you need a reality check. Not sure what your point is. How do you think people shape their opinions and perceptions on things if not via media and the internet? What would this “reality check” consist of? I would move to the US for a number of years just so I can determine whether I want to move there? Should I read the collected works of David Foster Wallace? It’s perception we’re talking about here. It doesn’t have to be rational nor accurate.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- erect_hacker 5y ago
  this is a terrible take. why comment at all?
ctvo 5y ago
> I think you overestimate the reputation of the US and underestimate how much it has rapidly declined the last decades. How has it rapidly declined? Please list the ways. I don't necessarily disagree, but I am curious.
- jleyank 5y ago
  Behaviour of the conservative side of the country has been grim the last 10+ years, unless you’re white. Overall, the country is right-centre as compared to the western world. Politics is constant yet government is in gridlock. Health care is costly and intermittent being tied to employment. Social cohesion and support isn’t particularly good. But there’s money to be had if you don’t mind the cost.
- randcraw 5y ago
  These are the biggest universities in America today. None of them existed 50 years ago. They are the future of college education in America. #1 Western Governors University (WGU) North Carolina 121,437 #2 Southern New Hampshire University New Hampshire 104,068 #3 Grand Canyon University Arizona 90,253 #4 Liberty University Virginia 79,152 #5 Ivy Tech Community College - Central Indiana Indiana 72,006
  - Noos 5y ago
    Uh, this makes zero sense. This is just places that are inexpensive to get degrees from because many places now require college degrees for jobs that don't need them. They are not "the future of college education" in any real leadership sense, no more than Coursera is "the future of education."

sweezyjeezy 5y ago

Don't think the article is arguing that 'broken' countries are poised to benefit here? They specifically say "political and monetary stability". The US does not have a monopoly on that worldwide. In terms of affordability - the US is one of the least affordable places - do you have any idea what an entry-level SE salary can get you in other countries?

bwb 5y ago
Agreed, but if you read down the list the author notes in that list Panama, Croatia, which while beautiful and stable in some ways... are also knows for corruption and other issues. The USA is very affordable if you look outside of SF/NY and compare it to Western Europe (esp with tech pay). What are you comparing it too?
- sweezyjeezy 5y ago
  It's certainly affordable with tech pay - but... that's the point of the article isn't it? Tech pay is sky high because US is overvaluing US talent. Most millennials in the US cannot afford to buy a home here. Agreed Panama is a bad example, but not Croatia - it's politically stable, and I don't believe many people leave because of corruption.
  - bwb 5y ago
    I am not sure the US is overvaluing US talent, I am undecided there... The average salary of a millenial is $47k a year, average millennial household makes $71k. The average mortgage payment in the USA is $1,487 ($18k over a year). So 25% to 38% of salary right? I think I did that right but feel free to clarify. Seems doable right? I think the USA is a mess, especially for millennials but when you look at the housing market in Europe for average salaries we are doing really well overall: https://www.statista.com/statistics/237529/price-to-income-ratio-of-housing-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/237529/price-to-income-r... Very few people immigrate from anywhere. It is very hard. I don't think people leave because of corruption, my point being they have higher levels than the USA: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl

cromka 5y ago

> low corruption I’m sorry, what? Ask anyone in NYC what they think of the corruption. Ask them if they feel that the taxes they pay are put to a good use. Ask what they think of MTA, of the unions, of the mafia connections. And ask any expat what they think of lobbying, a.k.a. legal corruption.

elzbardico 5y ago
You Americans have no idea how you have it good, do you? If you think NYC is corrupt, let's trade passports, see how you like brasilia.
bwb 5y ago
Compare corruption in NYC to India or Thailand or Romania :) A waist high pile of poop is much different from one the size of a skyscraper. I am not saying it doesn't have aspects of corruption, but it is low and solid resources on the local and national level to constantly investigate and make cases. Legalizing corruption through lobbying is a good move. There are other options but better than keeping it underground.
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  >Compare corruption in NYC to India or Thailand or Romania :) Corruption in Romania and other Eastern European countries is more generalized in the sense that there is more small corruption. Corruption cases in US are more serious.
  - bwb 5y ago
    proof? data? Not backed up by a lot of companies/orgs/data... https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/rou https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/rou https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/ https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corruption-index https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corruption-index
matsuokk 5y ago
I love paying taxes in NYC. I estimate NYC taxpayers saved me ~$100K in medical bills when I unexpectedly needed surgery and qualified for low-income Medicare coverage. I love that I’m again a heavy contributor to that system and happily so. And I love watching bike lanes built left and right, I love the city buying up empty lots to build parks, I love the Marathon, the “5 Boro” bike tour, the incredible (and heavily subsidized) ferry service, the public school free lunch programs, the vaccine outreach campaigns, the reliable snow removal, and the wonderful collection of libraries and museums and public spaces that are free and open to me. I love that the city cuts long-term lease deals with multi-tenant property owners to guarantee supply of low-income housing. A bunch of my friends grew up in that kind of housing and some of my sweetest neighbors live there now. I think MTA is one of the very BEST features of this or any world-class city — trains run all night! And it makes me super happy whenever I’m going somewhere at 5am and the train is packed with workers in steel-toed boots and jackets with local union patches commuting to the job site. I think my taxes are spent well enough — I know this because I love living here and have never given a serious thought to leaving for tax avoidance or whatever other fake drama is being projected onto this city from afar.

werdnapk 5y ago

Not sure how the rest of the world still views the USA, but as a Canadian the states no longer has a solid reputation for any of those things. The sad thing is that most Americans still believe they're #1 at almost everything.

bwb 5y ago
Canadians who read the news and keep abreast of such things would have a bad view of things (as they should). But, the reality is the USA still has all these things even if cracks are appearing. Don't let the hype cycle and media's focus on the bad lose sight of the big picture. I wouldn't expect many Canadians are immigrating anyway as you are in the top 10 well governed countries globally. Agreed, America's biggest problem is that 40% of Americans believe they are #1 at everything :). We should be stealing ideas left and right from other countries and instead we are stagnating under the belief that only we know how to do things.

presentation 5y ago

As an American who lives abroad, I specifically chose to leave because it's a place riddled with corruption, has a rigged justice system, whose political climate stifles free speech, is totally unaffordable in any of the urban centers, and has a depressingly incompetent bureaucracy on the local/state level (I'm looking at you, San Francisco...).