3 ms·

More precisely it's about making PDP-7 design the second class citizen. Interoperable design becomes the first class instead. POSIX would be implemented on top

More precisely it's about making PDP-7 design the second class citizen. Interoperable design becomes the first class instead. POSIX would be implemented on top of that.

lelanthran 5y ago
I understand that, but right now the C ABI is first class, and every language can call into it. What replacement are you proposing that every language can call into? How would a migration of existing Java, Python, Ruby, C++ etc programs be done to this new interface? Do programs need to be modified at the source level? Just recompiled? How will the existing programs that cannot be recompiled be handled? I quite aware that you can make the C ABI a shim into the new first class ABI to make existing programs work, but why would anyone target the new ABI when the existing one still works?
- GoblinSlayer 5y ago
  Obviously it's not aimed at people who want to use only POSIX.
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > Obviously it's not aimed at people who want to use only POSIX. Okay, then it's aimed at people who want to use more than just POSIX, right? That's the entire world. In which case the question still applies - how do you migrate everyone over to your new interoperable ABI? How will I run Gimp, Firefox/Thunderbird, IntelliJ, VSCode, Slack, Xterm, all my command-line tools (tar, grep, etc), Git, Meld, Starcraft 2 (and all 100+ games in my Steam library, and Steam itself) and more? How do you see your replacement running MySQL, Apache, Nginx, PostgreSQL, bash/zsh/etc, SQLite, stunnel, netcat, wireshark/tcpdump, etc? Do they all have to be recompiled? Replaced with new sootware? Because each and every one of the software I listed above depends on a C ABI. And any shim provided to make existing software work will simply result in developers ignoring your new ABI and targeting the C ABI for maximum compatibility.

3 ms·

More precisely it's about making PDP-7 design the second class citizen. Interoperable design becomes the first class instead. POSIX would be implemented on top

by GoblinSlayer 5y ago

More precisely it's about making PDP-7 design the second class citizen. Interoperable design becomes the first class instead. POSIX would be implemented on top of that.

lelanthran 5y ago
I understand that, but right now the C ABI is first class, and every language can call into it. What replacement are you proposing that every language can call into? How would a migration of existing Java, Python, Ruby, C++ etc programs be done to this new interface? Do programs need to be modified at the source level? Just recompiled? How will the existing programs that cannot be recompiled be handled? I quite aware that you can make the C ABI a shim into the new first class ABI to make existing programs work, but why would anyone target the new ABI when the existing one still works?
- GoblinSlayer 5y ago
  Obviously it's not aimed at people who want to use only POSIX.
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > Obviously it's not aimed at people who want to use only POSIX. Okay, then it's aimed at people who want to use more than just POSIX, right? That's the entire world. In which case the question still applies - how do you migrate everyone over to your new interoperable ABI? How will I run Gimp, Firefox/Thunderbird, IntelliJ, VSCode, Slack, Xterm, all my command-line tools (tar, grep, etc), Git, Meld, Starcraft 2 (and all 100+ games in my Steam library, and Steam itself) and more? How do you see your replacement running MySQL, Apache, Nginx, PostgreSQL, bash/zsh/etc, SQLite, stunnel, netcat, wireshark/tcpdump, etc? Do they all have to be recompiled? Replaced with new sootware? Because each and every one of the software I listed above depends on a C ABI. And any shim provided to make existing software work will simply result in developers ignoring your new ABI and targeting the C ABI for maximum compatibility.