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> It's simple, safe and efficient. I don't understand why USA are not doing something similar. It's a very easy explanation. France and many other countries in

> It's simple, safe and efficient. I don't understand why USA are not doing something similar. It's a very easy explanation. France and many other countries in Western Europe like it have a National Identity register. You simply cannot exist in society without being effectively registered with the government. (Which of course is free to citizens, and primarily offers convenience not burden) That national ID system is what ensures electoral integrity allowing the actual technical aspects of elections to be simple safe and efficient. And the reason why this can never work in the US is because culturally and politically, Americans deem that this level of federal government knowledge of it's citizens location and existence, is an imposition on liberty. This is true broadly across political lines (even if the more Left-leaning folks are comfortable with imitating Europe, and the more Right-leaning folks are comfortable with introducing burdens to voting with NOT free identity requirements) As a Canadian who moved to Europe and then went back, I genuinely see value in both philosophies.

seszett 5y ago
France doesn't exactly have a national identity register. Many other European countries do (like Belgium where I live) but France has a collection of registers, one or more per administration, each limited to the relevant information needed for that administration to perform its duties, and sharing information between them is forbidden by law outside of a few cases. Thus, many people vote in a different place than where they live and where they are registered for the tax admin. The address on one's identity card is often obsolete by a decade. The address on my passport is yet another one, obsolete as well but that doesn't actually matter because it's never used as a proof of residence. Social security is the closest thing there is in France to a national register, but no other admin or organisation is allowed to use the social security number. And the contact address they have can very well be out of date as well. Law enforcement came to "my door" a few months ago (to ask if I could help them with logs of my server on a case) and they actually were lucky because they came to my parents' house (an address I had forgotten to update in my host's contact info) just as I was on holidays there, but they didn't even know I had been living in Belgium for years. Since I wasn't a suspect, they had no right to actually know any info from the various national administrations. I lived in Canada for a year and some and it seemed to me to be basically the same, although maybe I didn't stay long enough to know more about how it works there.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  I think he means the national ID card system, which is indeed a national identity register. It was actually mandatory to have one until 1955 and while that's not the case anymore it is in practice. For elections, this is important combined with the requirement in France to show a photo ID at the polling station (well, this is France so the obligation is not always one, but still...) In the US, requirements to show a photo ID vary by state, some don't have any, afaik. In the UK no photo ID is asked at all. Neither country has ID cards.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > France doesn't exactly have a national identity register. There's so many of them there isn't need for one centralized file, especially since news laws keep interconnecting all these files. There's so many files on everyone in France if you believe in "human rights" that'll be hard to fathom. Since the nazi occupation (Vichy government), there is a national identity card. There's also the police file with all suspects, victims and witnesses (yes, all of them combined). Then there's the police biometrics file. The semi-secret "Base élèves" file snooping on every child going to school (which by law is quasi-mandatory). And so many others i can't list them all here. France is pretty much a police state in all regards. If you're lucky enough to only interact with lowly assholes from the local police, it's easy enough to discard the concept. But when you see the government had to contract Palantir because they gather so much data on people they can't process it...
denton-scratch 5y ago
> That national ID system is what ensures electoral integrity allowing the actual technical aspects of elections to be simple safe and efficient. There is no national ID system in the UK, which has elections that are simple, safe and efficient. Sure, there are sometimes recounts - if the margin of victory in the first count is very close. Third-party "ninjas" are not used for such recounts, which are generally complete by the end of the day after the ballot (they don't take months, as in Arizona). No scandal is associated with a recount - they're routine. There can be no parliamentary vote to allow or forbid a recount.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  Actually, in the UK there are debates about election safety and risks of fraud (if not alleged fraud) because there is currently no need to show any ID at the polling station: You just need to state a name and address and if that matches the electoral register you can cast a ballot...
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    Indeed, there are debates. And there are proposals for a national ID. But there is no evidence of significant fraudulent voting. Each name/address pair on the register gets to vote once, because the name is struck off the register when the ballot is issued. If I pretended to be someone else to use their ballot, it would be discovered when they attempted to cast it themselves. Since about 50% of people vote, there's about a 50:50 chance that any single fraudulent vote would be detected. Fraudulent voting on a significant scale is certain to be detected; and it hasn't been. The motives for debating a national ID are therefore nothing to do with election security.
    - mytailorisrich 5y ago
      I agree that national ID cards and having to show ID at polling stations are two different issues. But I also think that having to show an ID to vote should be a no-brainer... and IMHO the opposition to that is indeed because people think this is a Trojan horse for national ID cards.
fredestine 5y ago
I think u are mistaken about Americans thinking it is an imposition on liberty. We all know the real reason why american politicians don't want that. It is because people who don't have ID vote democrats in the hopes they'll get an ID. They twisted the narrative so much that in USA it is deemed racist to ask for an ID. because according to democrats, minorities don't know where the DMV is or cant ask for an ID...
- southerntofu 5y ago
  In a country where not everyone has an ID, of course it's racist to ask for ID. Can people in the USA vote for national elections without citizenship? That's definitely not the case here in France where there is also many undocumented folks living a hard life (very similar to USA in this regard). In any case, why would you need IDs in the first place? That's a tool of social control. As anecdote, the only time in French history when it was mandatory to have an ID card was during nazi occupation.
  - fredestine 5y ago
    Please enlighten us on why it is racist to ask for an ID? Poor people or non-white do not know how to make an ID is that what you are suggesting? I am non white and find this very racist. Reminds me of the colonizer mindset that puts itself as the white savior to all those opressed illetrate who cant ask for an ID. but I might be wrong. I got an ID in literaly 5 minutes in the USA as a foreigner btw.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      > Poor people or non-white do not know how to make an ID is that what you are suggesting? Many homeless people here don't have ID because to make one you need an address, and to get an address to receive papers you need an ID (circling dependency). In France, it requires citizenship to have an ID card. Legal immigrants are given a "titre de séjour", while undocumented people (by definition) don't have any of these. As a white person whose grandparents were immigrants, i've never been asked for ID in my entire life (except for official administration stuff or one of the times i was detained by police for political activities) ; this contrasts with my non-white friends who are frequently stopped by police for an "ID check". The ID check is used by french police as a means of controlling and humiliating popular non-white suburbs. It's not uncommon in these places for cops to know the actual names of the people they're controlling, and the control itself is just another form of harassment. There has been many anti-racist campaigns in France over the years denouncing "contrôle au faciès" (looks-based checks). If you speak some french, you can see some of the videos from those collectives who will tell you more about this practice. Now, specifically about elections, asking for ID (not proof of residency) willingly excludes foreigners. All the while forging plausible ID cards is very accessible to bad actors (retail price of a few hundred euros a piece). So no, i don't exactly see the point. > I am non white and find this very racist. Sorry to offend you. It was my impression that getting an ID in the USA can also be very complex (leading to many people being undocumented) but i may be wrong about that.
NamTaf 5y ago
In Australia, each electorate has a big book of names and addresses of voters registered there (the 'electoral roll'). You show up, say your name and address, and they strike off the line next to your details. Being struck off this register also constitutes the compulsory part of compulsory voting. Then you grab your ballot form off the person, wander on over to a booth, mark it as you so desire (formally, informally, a dick drawn on the ballot paper, leaving it blank, a tirade of abuse towards the clowns in the corridors of power, a combination of the above[1], etc.), fold it over, wander to the area with the cardboard boxes for depositing it in, and stroll on out to the BBQ for a democracy snag. If you are not in your voting area (e.g. you're on holidays on the day), you can vote at any location as they have another, bigger system that lists all of the people outside that electorate. They will print you off the corresponding ballot and then your ballot goes into a second box for collecting the votes of wayward souls who needed to do their civic duty, and those votes are dealt with separately These boxes containing the completed ballot papers then remain sealed and under formal watch by the Australian Electoral Commission until counting time after polls close that evening. Once counted, they're securely kept for any formal review as required. Voting only ever occurs on a Saturday. You can also do a postal vote, or pre-polling (going to a reduced set of polling booths before the election day, if you know you're going to be busy). Many schools, churches, public buildings, etc. are commandeered as voting centres. It is rare to need to queue more than 15 mins. I usually walk in to find maybe 2 people in front of me. Like the French system, this makes tallying the votes a very parallel affair but also means that the barrier to voting is essentially nil. Given the compulsory voting laws, the government is compelled to eliminate all barriers to voting. You'll note a few things here: 1) Although you register with the AEC, no physical ID is required to vote. The registration process is exceedingly simple, contains minimal data[2], and the government piggy-backs on to various services (e.g. drivers licences) to provide pathways for people to register. For example, I got an address change sticker for my licence today, and the page is 1/3 dedicated to that and 2/3 dedicated to reminding me to update my electoral registration to my new address. This means you can in theory vote in multiple different polling booths in the same or different electorates. The AEC will scrutinise this and you can be fined if you do it. However, AEC research suggests that it is very low decimal percentages of voters who try to vote multiple times, and most of those that do, do so by accident rather than malice. For example, in 2010 there were 12.4 million votes (out of 14 million elegible electors). Of that, 16,210 letters were sent to apparent multiple-voters, with 6,254 subsequently noted as clerical errors (i.e. somehow they were marked off twice accidentally). 1,454 people (0.01%) subsequently admitted to voting multiple times, and of that only 19 were referred to the police. Over 80% of multiple-voters were the elderly, new electors confused about the process, or those with language difficulties. The AEC reviews this each year, and the magnitude of the numbers tends to be the same, and discussion + the above figures can be found here: https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1415/VoterID https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart... 2) You don't actually have to vote. Other countries bemoan our 'compulsory voting' laws, without understanding that you can get your piece of paper and then immediately stroll out and throw it in the bin. It's the getting-your-name-struck-off-the-register part that matters. On balance, this draws people out but gives them the ability to opt out of the democratic process if they're serious about it. This detail is often lost in the debate, I find. 3) It is all paper-based, much like the French process. The AEC employs an army of people each election (most sign up only for that specific election, only a minority are full-time AEC employees) to scrutineer the process. It is supervised and has numerous checks and measures in place. Recounts can happen at the appeal of any party, and will often occur in close races. Being paper-based, there is a relatively immutable physical record that can be scruineered and independently audited. It is a very simple system by design, and that is one of its core strengths. [1]: the Australian Electoral Commission specifically clarified that a ballot that is legibly formal but ALSO has a dick drawn on it is still counted as a formal vote and will therefore be counted: https://twitter.com/AusElectoralCom/status/375142109960888320 https://twitter.com/AusElectoralCom/status/37514210996088832... [2]: The AEC holds name, date of birth and address. They will cross-link with other state and federal systems to send reminders about registration, but otherwise they keep very little data about citizens: https://aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/ https://aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/

seszett 5y ago

France doesn't exactly have a national identity register. Many other European countries do (like Belgium where I live) but France has a collection of registers, one or more per administration, each limited to the relevant information needed for that administration to perform its duties, and sharing information between them is forbidden by law outside of a few cases. Thus, many people vote in a different place than where they live and where they are registered for the tax admin. The address on one's identity card is often obsolete by a decade. The address on my passport is yet another one, obsolete as well but that doesn't actually matter because it's never used as a proof of residence. Social security is the closest thing there is in France to a national register, but no other admin or organisation is allowed to use the social security number. And the contact address they have can very well be out of date as well. Law enforcement came to "my door" a few months ago (to ask if I could help them with logs of my server on a case) and they actually were lucky because they came to my parents' house (an address I had forgotten to update in my host's contact info) just as I was on holidays there, but they didn't even know I had been living in Belgium for years. Since I wasn't a suspect, they had no right to actually know any info from the various national administrations. I lived in Canada for a year and some and it seemed to me to be basically the same, although maybe I didn't stay long enough to know more about how it works there.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
I think he means the national ID card system, which is indeed a national identity register. It was actually mandatory to have one until 1955 and while that's not the case anymore it is in practice. For elections, this is important combined with the requirement in France to show a photo ID at the polling station (well, this is France so the obligation is not always one, but still...) In the US, requirements to show a photo ID vary by state, some don't have any, afaik. In the UK no photo ID is asked at all. Neither country has ID cards.
southerntofu 5y ago
> France doesn't exactly have a national identity register. There's so many of them there isn't need for one centralized file, especially since news laws keep interconnecting all these files. There's so many files on everyone in France if you believe in "human rights" that'll be hard to fathom. Since the nazi occupation (Vichy government), there is a national identity card. There's also the police file with all suspects, victims and witnesses (yes, all of them combined). Then there's the police biometrics file. The semi-secret "Base élèves" file snooping on every child going to school (which by law is quasi-mandatory). And so many others i can't list them all here. France is pretty much a police state in all regards. If you're lucky enough to only interact with lowly assholes from the local police, it's easy enough to discard the concept. But when you see the government had to contract Palantir because they gather so much data on people they can't process it...

denton-scratch 5y ago

> That national ID system is what ensures electoral integrity allowing the actual technical aspects of elections to be simple safe and efficient. There is no national ID system in the UK, which has elections that are simple, safe and efficient. Sure, there are sometimes recounts - if the margin of victory in the first count is very close. Third-party "ninjas" are not used for such recounts, which are generally complete by the end of the day after the ballot (they don't take months, as in Arizona). No scandal is associated with a recount - they're routine. There can be no parliamentary vote to allow or forbid a recount.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
Actually, in the UK there are debates about election safety and risks of fraud (if not alleged fraud) because there is currently no need to show any ID at the polling station: You just need to state a name and address and if that matches the electoral register you can cast a ballot...
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Indeed, there are debates. And there are proposals for a national ID. But there is no evidence of significant fraudulent voting. Each name/address pair on the register gets to vote once, because the name is struck off the register when the ballot is issued. If I pretended to be someone else to use their ballot, it would be discovered when they attempted to cast it themselves. Since about 50% of people vote, there's about a 50:50 chance that any single fraudulent vote would be detected. Fraudulent voting on a significant scale is certain to be detected; and it hasn't been. The motives for debating a national ID are therefore nothing to do with election security.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    I agree that national ID cards and having to show ID at polling stations are two different issues. But I also think that having to show an ID to vote should be a no-brainer... and IMHO the opposition to that is indeed because people think this is a Trojan horse for national ID cards.

fredestine 5y ago

I think u are mistaken about Americans thinking it is an imposition on liberty. We all know the real reason why american politicians don't want that. It is because people who don't have ID vote democrats in the hopes they'll get an ID. They twisted the narrative so much that in USA it is deemed racist to ask for an ID. because according to democrats, minorities don't know where the DMV is or cant ask for an ID...

southerntofu 5y ago
In a country where not everyone has an ID, of course it's racist to ask for ID. Can people in the USA vote for national elections without citizenship? That's definitely not the case here in France where there is also many undocumented folks living a hard life (very similar to USA in this regard). In any case, why would you need IDs in the first place? That's a tool of social control. As anecdote, the only time in French history when it was mandatory to have an ID card was during nazi occupation.
- fredestine 5y ago
  Please enlighten us on why it is racist to ask for an ID? Poor people or non-white do not know how to make an ID is that what you are suggesting? I am non white and find this very racist. Reminds me of the colonizer mindset that puts itself as the white savior to all those opressed illetrate who cant ask for an ID. but I might be wrong. I got an ID in literaly 5 minutes in the USA as a foreigner btw.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > Poor people or non-white do not know how to make an ID is that what you are suggesting? Many homeless people here don't have ID because to make one you need an address, and to get an address to receive papers you need an ID (circling dependency). In France, it requires citizenship to have an ID card. Legal immigrants are given a "titre de séjour", while undocumented people (by definition) don't have any of these. As a white person whose grandparents were immigrants, i've never been asked for ID in my entire life (except for official administration stuff or one of the times i was detained by police for political activities) ; this contrasts with my non-white friends who are frequently stopped by police for an "ID check". The ID check is used by french police as a means of controlling and humiliating popular non-white suburbs. It's not uncommon in these places for cops to know the actual names of the people they're controlling, and the control itself is just another form of harassment. There has been many anti-racist campaigns in France over the years denouncing "contrôle au faciès" (looks-based checks). If you speak some french, you can see some of the videos from those collectives who will tell you more about this practice. Now, specifically about elections, asking for ID (not proof of residency) willingly excludes foreigners. All the while forging plausible ID cards is very accessible to bad actors (retail price of a few hundred euros a piece). So no, i don't exactly see the point. > I am non white and find this very racist. Sorry to offend you. It was my impression that getting an ID in the USA can also be very complex (leading to many people being undocumented) but i may be wrong about that.

NamTaf 5y ago

In Australia, each electorate has a big book of names and addresses of voters registered there (the 'electoral roll'). You show up, say your name and address, and they strike off the line next to your details. Being struck off this register also constitutes the compulsory part of compulsory voting. Then you grab your ballot form off the person, wander on over to a booth, mark it as you so desire (formally, informally, a dick drawn on the ballot paper, leaving it blank, a tirade of abuse towards the clowns in the corridors of power, a combination of the above[1], etc.), fold it over, wander to the area with the cardboard boxes for depositing it in, and stroll on out to the BBQ for a democracy snag. If you are not in your voting area (e.g. you're on holidays on the day), you can vote at any location as they have another, bigger system that lists all of the people outside that electorate. They will print you off the corresponding ballot and then your ballot goes into a second box for collecting the votes of wayward souls who needed to do their civic duty, and those votes are dealt with separately These boxes containing the completed ballot papers then remain sealed and under formal watch by the Australian Electoral Commission until counting time after polls close that evening. Once counted, they're securely kept for any formal review as required. Voting only ever occurs on a Saturday. You can also do a postal vote, or pre-polling (going to a reduced set of polling booths before the election day, if you know you're going to be busy). Many schools, churches, public buildings, etc. are commandeered as voting centres. It is rare to need to queue more than 15 mins. I usually walk in to find maybe 2 people in front of me. Like the French system, this makes tallying the votes a very parallel affair but also means that the barrier to voting is essentially nil. Given the compulsory voting laws, the government is compelled to eliminate all barriers to voting. You'll note a few things here: 1) Although you register with the AEC, no physical ID is required to vote. The registration process is exceedingly simple, contains minimal data[2], and the government piggy-backs on to various services (e.g. drivers licences) to provide pathways for people to register. For example, I got an address change sticker for my licence today, and the page is 1/3 dedicated to that and 2/3 dedicated to reminding me to update my electoral registration to my new address. This means you can in theory vote in multiple different polling booths in the same or different electorates. The AEC will scrutinise this and you can be fined if you do it. However, AEC research suggests that it is very low decimal percentages of voters who try to vote multiple times, and most of those that do, do so by accident rather than malice. For example, in 2010 there were 12.4 million votes (out of 14 million elegible electors). Of that, 16,210 letters were sent to apparent multiple-voters, with 6,254 subsequently noted as clerical errors (i.e. somehow they were marked off twice accidentally). 1,454 people (0.01%) subsequently admitted to voting multiple times, and of that only 19 were referred to the police. Over 80% of multiple-voters were the elderly, new electors confused about the process, or those with language difficulties. The AEC reviews this each year, and the magnitude of the numbers tends to be the same, and discussion + the above figures can be found here: https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1415/VoterID https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart... 2) You don't actually have to vote. Other countries bemoan our 'compulsory voting' laws, without understanding that you can get your piece of paper and then immediately stroll out and throw it in the bin. It's the getting-your-name-struck-off-the-register part that matters. On balance, this draws people out but gives them the ability to opt out of the democratic process if they're serious about it. This detail is often lost in the debate, I find. 3) It is all paper-based, much like the French process. The AEC employs an army of people each election (most sign up only for that specific election, only a minority are full-time AEC employees) to scrutineer the process. It is supervised and has numerous checks and measures in place. Recounts can happen at the appeal of any party, and will often occur in close races. Being paper-based, there is a relatively immutable physical record that can be scruineered and independently audited. It is a very simple system by design, and that is one of its core strengths. [1]: the Australian Electoral Commission specifically clarified that a ballot that is legibly formal but ALSO has a dick drawn on it is still counted as a formal vote and will therefore be counted: https://twitter.com/AusElectoralCom/status/375142109960888320 https://twitter.com/AusElectoralCom/status/37514210996088832... [2]: The AEC holds name, date of birth and address. They will cross-link with other state and federal systems to send reminders about registration, but otherwise they keep very little data about citizens: https://aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/ https://aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/