5 ms·

I don't think children, or anybody without a drivers license should be allowed to ride on the road at all.

burkaman 5y ago
How do you think people under the age of 16 should get around? For some examples, if they want to go to a friend's house a mile or two away, or from their home to a train station, or to the supermarket.
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  They should ride on dedicated bike paths or the sidewalk.
  - burkaman 5y ago
    I mean I agree with you in that I kind of hate cars and wish I could use bike paths and public transit to get everywhere, but quite a substantial portion of the world has either no sidewalks where they live, or sidewalks like NYC or Tokyo that are so busy they are impossible to bike on.
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    Erm... where I am in the US (Bay Area), many neighborhoods have neither. Just a rain gutter on the side of the road and no sidewalk.
  - cranekam 5y ago
    Riding on the sidewalk is a terrible idea. The sidewalk is for pedestrians, not people weaving around on bikes. I'm massively pro-cycling, but bikes belong either in dedicated infrastructure or on the roads. Roads must not be monopolized by motor traffic — everyone pays for this infrastructure through taxation and it should serve everyone equally well.
    - jay_kyburz 5y ago
      I think a bike - pedestrian collision is less likely to kill somebody than a car - bike collision.
      - cranekam 5y ago
        That may be so, but being killed isn't the only thing that pedestrians are concerned with. At best it's plain annoying to have a someone on a bike squeezing around pedestrians (remember that even a slow-moving bike is likely faster than people walking), and at worst there are collisions and bumps and forcing people off the path and whatever else. Cycling on a sidewalk is also not a good experience for the cyclist, either. When crossing a perpendicular street it's quite a pain to look behind to see if someone is about to turn into you as you cross the road. This is no problem for pedestrians because they move slowly and can usually look back without wavering too much. It's not a concern for cyclists on the road because they have the right of way. Then there are reversing cars, stuff in the way (bins, lamp posts, whatever) and myriad other reasons why cycling on a sidewalk is impractical. I love cycling and bikes and firmly believe cycling has an important role in getting people around. But it shouldn't be at the expense of people who're walking. Bikes belong on dedicated infrastructure or on the road. If the road is deemed "not suitable" somehow this needs to be addressed by building better roads.
hytdstd 5y ago
Why do you think that?
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  Because I think the road is dangerous place to be. I think we all accept that drivers should understand the road rules, have a license to drive, and should be more than 16-17 to do it. I think its weird that we would let children of any age, with no knowledge of road rules ride a bike around in traffic. In my small city, it's legal for kids to ride bikes on the footpaths, but in most of Australia its is not. I think its backwards.
  - hytdstd 5y ago
    I don't think the risk to yourself is the reason why operating a motor vehicle is a licensed activity.
fy20 5y ago
I'm not sure I agree to an outright ban, but some sort of required training before using electrical vehicles (in general, not just on roads) would be a good idea. As others say these are effectively low power motorcycles, not bicycles. Last week in my city an electric scooter pulled out of a junction - where the light was red - in front of a bus. The bus performed an emergency stop, causing minor injuries that required hospitalization to a number of people onboard. The scooter just continued without stopping. Police are trying to track down the driver, but it seems pretty much impossible (it was privately owned, not rented from an app). I've also seen countless accidents from people driving at 25km/h across pedestrian crossings, and the car not seeing them before it's too late. Here you are supposed to dismount from vehicles and walk across, but most people do not. Near my office there is a junction where you can turn left - crossing a lane coming in the other direction - and go up a hill, at the same time the light is green for pedestrians to cross, and cars are supposed to give way. If a scooter is coming along the pavement at full speed, in the same direction as you are travelling before you turned, there is no way you will see it until it's right in front of you and it's too late to stop.
lmm 5y ago
That's ass-backwards. If you can't drive safely around children then you shouldn't be licensed to operate a 3-tonne death machine in residential areas.
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  What if the child doesn't know what a give way sign means? Or doesn't know what to do in a round about, or likes to run red lights to show off to their friends. Kids do dumb things sometimes and the road is a dangerous place to be.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    Adults do dumb things too, all the time.
  - xmprt 5y ago
    So let's make the road safer instead of banning children. Also, parents aren't completely irresponsible and will teach their kids how to cycle before letting them run loose.
  - lmm 5y ago
    > What if the child doesn't know what a give way sign means? Or doesn't know what to do in a round about, or likes to run red lights to show off to their friends. Then you'd better be driving slowly and paying attention if you want to operate a heavy vehicle around where kids are. > the road is a dangerous place to be Roads are fine; motor vehicles being driven at speed make places dangerous.

How do you think people under the age of 16 should get around? For some examples, if they want to go to a friend's house a mile or two away, or from their home to a train station, or to the supermarket.

jay_kyburz 5y ago
They should ride on dedicated bike paths or the sidewalk.
- burkaman 5y ago
  I mean I agree with you in that I kind of hate cars and wish I could use bike paths and public transit to get everywhere, but quite a substantial portion of the world has either no sidewalks where they live, or sidewalks like NYC or Tokyo that are so busy they are impossible to bike on.
- legerdemain 5y ago
  Erm... where I am in the US (Bay Area), many neighborhoods have neither. Just a rain gutter on the side of the road and no sidewalk.
- cranekam 5y ago
  Riding on the sidewalk is a terrible idea. The sidewalk is for pedestrians, not people weaving around on bikes. I'm massively pro-cycling, but bikes belong either in dedicated infrastructure or on the roads. Roads must not be monopolized by motor traffic — everyone pays for this infrastructure through taxation and it should serve everyone equally well.
  - jay_kyburz 5y ago
    I think a bike - pedestrian collision is less likely to kill somebody than a car - bike collision.
    - cranekam 5y ago
      That may be so, but being killed isn't the only thing that pedestrians are concerned with. At best it's plain annoying to have a someone on a bike squeezing around pedestrians (remember that even a slow-moving bike is likely faster than people walking), and at worst there are collisions and bumps and forcing people off the path and whatever else. Cycling on a sidewalk is also not a good experience for the cyclist, either. When crossing a perpendicular street it's quite a pain to look behind to see if someone is about to turn into you as you cross the road. This is no problem for pedestrians because they move slowly and can usually look back without wavering too much. It's not a concern for cyclists on the road because they have the right of way. Then there are reversing cars, stuff in the way (bins, lamp posts, whatever) and myriad other reasons why cycling on a sidewalk is impractical. I love cycling and bikes and firmly believe cycling has an important role in getting people around. But it shouldn't be at the expense of people who're walking. Bikes belong on dedicated infrastructure or on the road. If the road is deemed "not suitable" somehow this needs to be addressed by building better roads.

hytdstd 5y ago

Why do you think that?

jay_kyburz 5y ago
Because I think the road is dangerous place to be. I think we all accept that drivers should understand the road rules, have a license to drive, and should be more than 16-17 to do it. I think its weird that we would let children of any age, with no knowledge of road rules ride a bike around in traffic. In my small city, it's legal for kids to ride bikes on the footpaths, but in most of Australia its is not. I think its backwards.
- hytdstd 5y ago
  I don't think the risk to yourself is the reason why operating a motor vehicle is a licensed activity.

fy20 5y ago

I'm not sure I agree to an outright ban, but some sort of required training before using electrical vehicles (in general, not just on roads) would be a good idea. As others say these are effectively low power motorcycles, not bicycles. Last week in my city an electric scooter pulled out of a junction - where the light was red - in front of a bus. The bus performed an emergency stop, causing minor injuries that required hospitalization to a number of people onboard. The scooter just continued without stopping. Police are trying to track down the driver, but it seems pretty much impossible (it was privately owned, not rented from an app). I've also seen countless accidents from people driving at 25km/h across pedestrian crossings, and the car not seeing them before it's too late. Here you are supposed to dismount from vehicles and walk across, but most people do not. Near my office there is a junction where you can turn left - crossing a lane coming in the other direction - and go up a hill, at the same time the light is green for pedestrians to cross, and cars are supposed to give way. If a scooter is coming along the pavement at full speed, in the same direction as you are travelling before you turned, there is no way you will see it until it's right in front of you and it's too late to stop.

lmm 5y ago

That's ass-backwards. If you can't drive safely around children then you shouldn't be licensed to operate a 3-tonne death machine in residential areas.

jay_kyburz 5y ago
What if the child doesn't know what a give way sign means? Or doesn't know what to do in a round about, or likes to run red lights to show off to their friends. Kids do dumb things sometimes and the road is a dangerous place to be.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Adults do dumb things too, all the time.
- xmprt 5y ago
  So let's make the road safer instead of banning children. Also, parents aren't completely irresponsible and will teach their kids how to cycle before letting them run loose.
- lmm 5y ago
  > What if the child doesn't know what a give way sign means? Or doesn't know what to do in a round about, or likes to run red lights to show off to their friends. Then you'd better be driving slowly and paying attention if you want to operate a heavy vehicle around where kids are. > the road is a dangerous place to be Roads are fine; motor vehicles being driven at speed make places dangerous.