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It's... complicated... I rode a bike to school when my limited money would buy a very bad car or a nice bike. So I opted for the bike and had to ride it becau

It's... complicated... I rode a bike to school when my limited money would buy a very bad car or a nice bike. So I opted for the bike and had to ride it because that's all I had. I did that for a couple of years - even in the cold and ice. My commute distance varied in my biking days, from 6 to 20 miles. I always obeyed all the traffic laws, though occasionally in the early AM I'd find lights that would not turn green for a bike no matter what I did. I had people scream at me to get off the road, and otherwise be exceptionally rude. I occasionally had bike lanes and appreciated them, sought them out because it provided better spacing. But the busses on those routes were frequently in the bike lane and were, frankly, slower than I was. But navigating them was always a pain until I got well past them. On slower roads (20-25 mph) with no bike lane I would take a lane to myself and keep up with traffic but only when I could reasonably keep up. In the end, safety won out, and I abandoned the practice. Now, as a driver, I am appalled at the behavior of cyclists. With my experience I take interest in and carefully watch their behavior. Running red lights and not stopping for stop signs is the worst. And it's pretty universal. Bad spacing in the lane, little to no accommodation for drivers when they could provide a bit more space for a comfortable pass. Sometimes they can't help it, and I get it, but when they can and don't... I always tried to be crystal clear about my messaging to the cars around me. I'm taking the lane here for my safety because there are parked cars in the bike lane or otherwise on the shoulder. I'm done now and look, I'm providing lots of space for everyone to safely pass me. So the rude behavior I encountered was finally somewhat understood. I really appreciated having good bike lanes. But cyclists do themselves no favors in how they conduct themselves, which will hurt them when pining for better road accommodations. Even the cost factor is complicated. Everyone factors in the cost per mile of the bike, which is excellent, but the input calories are non-trivial and if you're not running the numbers on just ramen noodles it turns into quite a significant financial cost. There are definitely health benefits.

JCharante 5y ago
Aren't people of lower economic means also more overweight? Some exercise doesn't seem like a bad idea.
- BackBlast 5y ago
  There is a significant difference between recreational level exercise and work-every-day-because-you-have-no-other-method that's burning potentially >1000 calories per day and measurably increasing your food bill.
xvedejas 5y ago
I have been explicitly told by my local bike coalition not to stop fully for stop signs. Stopping fully is not particularly safe and local motorists don't even expect it. Given that information, what do you think is the correct behavior for a beginner cyclist like me?
- BackBlast 5y ago
  Rolling stops are fine, I have no problem with that. That's a good effort, gives you time to really examine the area. Don't blast through at full speed even if it looks clear. That's a bad unsafe habbit.
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  I don't know about the US, but a stop sign here in Australia means complete stop. If you fail to fully stop in your driving test it's an instant fail. If you fail to fully stop and there is an accident, you will be at fault. In Australia, bikes are required to follow the same rules as cars when on the road.
  - xvedejas 5y ago
    In the US, the letter of the law is that cyclists must make a full stop, yes. But cycling activists often argue that this is a law that needs changing, and would help get more casual riders on bikes. Additionally, most bike riders in cities are on the lower income side; this would reduce how much they're cited for what is fairly accepted behavior.
  - dashundchen 5y ago
    In some US states rolling stops for bikes have been legalized as "Idaho stops". I have used a bike as my primary transportation for 15 years. The majority of rides are in traffic - there's very little dedicated bike infrastructure (painted sharrows or gutters don't count) Trust me when I say, in the US, an intersection is the most dangerous place to be. You are a sitting duck if you aren't moving when clear. A lot of drivers straight up don't pay attention at lights, due to phones or spacing out, and don't give you space when coming up behind you. Mix in right-on-reds, unprotected left turns, and the general drivers failure to negotiate turns - if it's clear I'm going. It's also safer for me to stay at a relatively consistent speed for predictable passing than accelerating in mixed traffic with very different acceleration curves.
danny_codes 5y ago
In regards to bike-rider behavior on roads, of course cyclists appear "misbehaved" on roads. The roads are not designed for cyclists, so we have to fight with the design of the transport network to get anywhere Car-oriented transport infrastructure has been a terrible mistake. Don't blame the cyclists for trying to salvage something from the wreckage.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Car-oriented infra structure was responsible for a sizable portion of the economical development for quite a while.
  - erect_hacker 5y ago
    Because we made it that way, cars had nothing to do with it. Hong Kong is not car oriented and it develop just fine…
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      Hong Kong is inserted on the global economy last time I've checked.
  - stephen_g 5y ago
    But it seems to produce economically terrible outcomes longer term... Induced demand is a good example - you get to the point where you need to pay huge amounts of money to expand road infrastructure, but as soon as you do it encourages even more use so after widening a highway, there is often an increase in travel times fairly soon after the upgrade after the initial short-term benefit! Strong Towns also have some good examples of how car-oriented infrastructure can also be economically unsustainable in that it encourages low-density neighbourhoods with a lot of roads, so long term cities can't afford to maintain the roads without cross-subsidising it from new developments. So if the city stops growing, it often can't sustain the infrastructure it has! Whereas somewhat more dense areas (especially where retail and small business tenancies are mixed in with housing) can have much more property tax income per unit area as well as less road infrastructure to maintain which can tip the balance to being economically sustainable in itself.
Scroedingershat 5y ago
> Now, as a driver, I am appalled at the behavior of cyclists. With my experience I take interest in and carefully watch their behavior. > Running red lights and not stopping for stop signs is the worst. And it's pretty universal. Some areas have a yield at stop signs law for bikes so the stop signs could be legal, but I think a major driver of this kind of behavior is bike hostile infrastructure. If you've stopped for your 20th red light that prioritises non existent car traffic and that won't turn green today, or you're going past your fifth intersection that requires crossing at signals 3 times, waiting 2 minutes a piece on an empty road with visibility 500m in each direction it starts seeming pointless. Once someone is in the habit of disobeying clearly pointless (or in the case of many stop signs, actively unsafe because there is no visibility at the sign and accelerating up hill from a stop rather than 2mph causes you to spend far more time in the danger zone) signals and signage I can see it being easy to start ignoring others. Respect works both ways, and when your city and laws clearly disrespect someone you shouldn't be surprised they stop respecting you.
- BackBlast 5y ago
  The only cyclists I actively disliked were those who had stripped their reflectors and then rode around dressed in black at night. Scared me half to death when I finally saw them. That move agitated me quite a bit. Thank goodness I've only run into that once. Seems to me that it's a very bad idea to disrespect in ways that actively make your own life less safe. Especially on something as fragile as a bicycle. Regardless of the disrespect heaped your way.
DonHopkins 5y ago
Rude behavior goes both ways, but one way is much deadlier than the other. https://www.thedrive.com/news/43060/coal-rolling-teen-that-hit-cyclists-charged-with-six-felonies https://www.thedrive.com/news/43060/coal-rolling-teen-that-h... >Coal-Rolling Teen That Hit Cyclists Charged With Six Felonies >The 16-year-old was not arrested after the incident, but has now surrendered to authorities. >On September 25, a group of cyclists riding near Waller, Texas, were hit by a Ford Super Duty driven by a 16-year old youth. Reports from witnesses indicated the driver had been "rolling coal" on the group immediately prior to striking six cyclists, four of whom were hospitalized due to injuries sustained. Now, news out of Texas is that the teen driver is finally in custody according to the District Attorney of Waller County, over a month after the incident occurred. >[...] Cyclist Chase Ferrell, who saw the events unfold, told Fox 26 at the time that the crash happened "because [the driver] was accelerating to blow more diesel fuel on these cyclists," adding that the driver "ended up hitting 3 people before his brakes even started." Ferrell noted that the teen remained at the scene after hitting the cyclists, and spoke to police. However, the driver was not arrested in the wake of the crash. "I don't understand, if it was me who had struck someone else, I would be in jail," noted Ferrell. https://www.thedrive.com/article/9930/colorado-bans-rolling-coal-hallelujah https://www.thedrive.com/article/9930/colorado-bans-rolling-... >Colorado Bans Rolling Coal: Hallelujah! >It doesn't matter that it will be nearly impossible to enforce: this legislation is more than welcome. >For those not in the know, rolling coal is the name for blasting black smoke out the exhaust of a diesel-engined vehicle. It is done by modifying the air and fuel mixture in forced induction diesel engines to make the engines run rich, the result of which is a cloud of soot blowing out the tailpipes. This is done for the childish sake of annoying people, typically anyone that a coal-roller doesn't like, which includes but is not limited to hybrid drivers, convertible drivers, bicyclists, pedestrians, and anyone who so much as looks like they don't attend the same evangelical megachurch. Why do people do it? Nobody one can say for sure, though it has been suggested that it has its roots in anti-environmentalism.

JCharante 5y ago

Aren't people of lower economic means also more overweight? Some exercise doesn't seem like a bad idea.

BackBlast 5y ago
There is a significant difference between recreational level exercise and work-every-day-because-you-have-no-other-method that's burning potentially >1000 calories per day and measurably increasing your food bill.

xvedejas 5y ago

I have been explicitly told by my local bike coalition not to stop fully for stop signs. Stopping fully is not particularly safe and local motorists don't even expect it. Given that information, what do you think is the correct behavior for a beginner cyclist like me?

BackBlast 5y ago
Rolling stops are fine, I have no problem with that. That's a good effort, gives you time to really examine the area. Don't blast through at full speed even if it looks clear. That's a bad unsafe habbit.
jay_kyburz 5y ago
I don't know about the US, but a stop sign here in Australia means complete stop. If you fail to fully stop in your driving test it's an instant fail. If you fail to fully stop and there is an accident, you will be at fault. In Australia, bikes are required to follow the same rules as cars when on the road.
- xvedejas 5y ago
  In the US, the letter of the law is that cyclists must make a full stop, yes. But cycling activists often argue that this is a law that needs changing, and would help get more casual riders on bikes. Additionally, most bike riders in cities are on the lower income side; this would reduce how much they're cited for what is fairly accepted behavior.
- dashundchen 5y ago
  In some US states rolling stops for bikes have been legalized as "Idaho stops". I have used a bike as my primary transportation for 15 years. The majority of rides are in traffic - there's very little dedicated bike infrastructure (painted sharrows or gutters don't count) Trust me when I say, in the US, an intersection is the most dangerous place to be. You are a sitting duck if you aren't moving when clear. A lot of drivers straight up don't pay attention at lights, due to phones or spacing out, and don't give you space when coming up behind you. Mix in right-on-reds, unprotected left turns, and the general drivers failure to negotiate turns - if it's clear I'm going. It's also safer for me to stay at a relatively consistent speed for predictable passing than accelerating in mixed traffic with very different acceleration curves.

danny_codes 5y ago

In regards to bike-rider behavior on roads, of course cyclists appear "misbehaved" on roads. The roads are not designed for cyclists, so we have to fight with the design of the transport network to get anywhere Car-oriented transport infrastructure has been a terrible mistake. Don't blame the cyclists for trying to salvage something from the wreckage.

elzbardico 5y ago
Car-oriented infra structure was responsible for a sizable portion of the economical development for quite a while.
- erect_hacker 5y ago
  Because we made it that way, cars had nothing to do with it. Hong Kong is not car oriented and it develop just fine…
  - elzbardico 5y ago
    Hong Kong is inserted on the global economy last time I've checked.
- stephen_g 5y ago
  But it seems to produce economically terrible outcomes longer term... Induced demand is a good example - you get to the point where you need to pay huge amounts of money to expand road infrastructure, but as soon as you do it encourages even more use so after widening a highway, there is often an increase in travel times fairly soon after the upgrade after the initial short-term benefit! Strong Towns also have some good examples of how car-oriented infrastructure can also be economically unsustainable in that it encourages low-density neighbourhoods with a lot of roads, so long term cities can't afford to maintain the roads without cross-subsidising it from new developments. So if the city stops growing, it often can't sustain the infrastructure it has! Whereas somewhat more dense areas (especially where retail and small business tenancies are mixed in with housing) can have much more property tax income per unit area as well as less road infrastructure to maintain which can tip the balance to being economically sustainable in itself.

Scroedingershat 5y ago

> Now, as a driver, I am appalled at the behavior of cyclists. With my experience I take interest in and carefully watch their behavior. > Running red lights and not stopping for stop signs is the worst. And it's pretty universal. Some areas have a yield at stop signs law for bikes so the stop signs could be legal, but I think a major driver of this kind of behavior is bike hostile infrastructure. If you've stopped for your 20th red light that prioritises non existent car traffic and that won't turn green today, or you're going past your fifth intersection that requires crossing at signals 3 times, waiting 2 minutes a piece on an empty road with visibility 500m in each direction it starts seeming pointless. Once someone is in the habit of disobeying clearly pointless (or in the case of many stop signs, actively unsafe because there is no visibility at the sign and accelerating up hill from a stop rather than 2mph causes you to spend far more time in the danger zone) signals and signage I can see it being easy to start ignoring others. Respect works both ways, and when your city and laws clearly disrespect someone you shouldn't be surprised they stop respecting you.

BackBlast 5y ago
The only cyclists I actively disliked were those who had stripped their reflectors and then rode around dressed in black at night. Scared me half to death when I finally saw them. That move agitated me quite a bit. Thank goodness I've only run into that once. Seems to me that it's a very bad idea to disrespect in ways that actively make your own life less safe. Especially on something as fragile as a bicycle. Regardless of the disrespect heaped your way.

DonHopkins 5y ago

Rude behavior goes both ways, but one way is much deadlier than the other. https://www.thedrive.com/news/43060/coal-rolling-teen-that-hit-cyclists-charged-with-six-felonies https://www.thedrive.com/news/43060/coal-rolling-teen-that-h... >Coal-Rolling Teen That Hit Cyclists Charged With Six Felonies >The 16-year-old was not arrested after the incident, but has now surrendered to authorities. >On September 25, a group of cyclists riding near Waller, Texas, were hit by a Ford Super Duty driven by a 16-year old youth. Reports from witnesses indicated the driver had been "rolling coal" on the group immediately prior to striking six cyclists, four of whom were hospitalized due to injuries sustained. Now, news out of Texas is that the teen driver is finally in custody according to the District Attorney of Waller County, over a month after the incident occurred. >[...] Cyclist Chase Ferrell, who saw the events unfold, told Fox 26 at the time that the crash happened "because [the driver] was accelerating to blow more diesel fuel on these cyclists," adding that the driver "ended up hitting 3 people before his brakes even started." Ferrell noted that the teen remained at the scene after hitting the cyclists, and spoke to police. However, the driver was not arrested in the wake of the crash. "I don't understand, if it was me who had struck someone else, I would be in jail," noted Ferrell. https://www.thedrive.com/article/9930/colorado-bans-rolling-coal-hallelujah https://www.thedrive.com/article/9930/colorado-bans-rolling-... >Colorado Bans Rolling Coal: Hallelujah! >It doesn't matter that it will be nearly impossible to enforce: this legislation is more than welcome. >For those not in the know, rolling coal is the name for blasting black smoke out the exhaust of a diesel-engined vehicle. It is done by modifying the air and fuel mixture in forced induction diesel engines to make the engines run rich, the result of which is a cloud of soot blowing out the tailpipes. This is done for the childish sake of annoying people, typically anyone that a coal-roller doesn't like, which includes but is not limited to hybrid drivers, convertible drivers, bicyclists, pedestrians, and anyone who so much as looks like they don't attend the same evangelical megachurch. Why do people do it? Nobody one can say for sure, though it has been suggested that it has its roots in anti-environmentalism.