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> the short-term hell is simply more people experiencing what most cyclists are already used to. Did you miss the part where the cyclists are the ones inflicti

> the short-term hell is simply more people experiencing what most cyclists are already used to. Did you miss the part where the cyclists are the ones inflicting that hell on others sometimes? Cyclists haven't been the only ones demanding better non-automotive infrastructure. I've supported the local path with both my dollars and the sweat of my brow, only to have freeloading cyclists tell me that they have priority (exactly opposite to how the laws are written) and I should get out of their way. One political change that needs to happen is that cyclists need to stop looking down their noses at other non-automotive users. When cyclists stop treating pedestrians exactly the same way they complain about being treated by cars, maybe greater cooperation will be possible. Nobody likes the smell of hypocrisy.

notatoad 5y ago
again, this is exactly the sort of politics that hopefully will change as more people ride bikes. yes, there's some bad cyclists. but because there's few enough cyclists, people who aren't cyclists like to group us all together. when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. but when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists, as if we're all the same, because we're just a group of weirdos that you don't feel a part of.
- notacoward 5y ago
  > when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists No, I don't, and even if that was meant as a generic "you" it seems a bit like attempted mind-reading. How about not doing that? FWIW, the people I've worked with on maintaining my local path are mostly cyclists. No friction there. When people call out "on your left" (interestingly that's most of the women and damn few of the men) I always say "thank you" in return. I'm well aware that most cyclists are good people and I treat them as such, but there are enough - and an even higher percentage among cycling activists - that it's a problem. I guess I should have been more explicit about referring to that subset earlier, but other cyclists should be aware that those are the ones people remember (it's basic math + psychology) and exert peer pressure accordingly instead of getting aggressive themselves every time the issue comes up.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. Ya know, I don't have to look any farther than this discussion to see people doing exactly that, painting all drivers as bad.
- mrep 5y ago
  In my experience, the percentage of cyclists that disregard the rules of the road are an order of magnitude higher than car drivers.
  - wanderingstan 5y ago
    When people mention this, I always ask what percentage of cars are following the speed limit—a rule of the road all the more important when piloting a vehicle which can easily kill. Cyclists disregarding the rules of the road are lower percentage, and primarily endanger themselves.
    - mrep 5y ago
      Fare: I agree that cars speed more than cyclists blowing stop sings/red lights but the latter is far more dangerous in my opinion and I see them do it constantly. I had to slam on the breaks 3 weeks ago when making a left because of a biker completely running a red light in front of me.
      - Symbiote 5y ago
        Count the proportion who run the light given the opportunity. All cyclists have the opportunity, but only the front car - if it stops, it blocks others. I find the number running lights to be similar.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#638693ba4bfa https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists...
- rp1 5y ago
  I think the difference is that people dislike cyclists because they like the drive, and cyclists make driving extremely dangerous. I can basically autopilot down any road with exclusive auto and pedestrian traffic, but introduce a cyclist and I have to pay extreme attention to avoid causing a tragedy. I totally support cyclists right to cycle, but I’m just providing some commentary on why cyclists as a whole are painted in a bad light. It’s not really about the behavior of cyclists.

notatoad 5y ago

again, this is exactly the sort of politics that hopefully will change as more people ride bikes. yes, there's some bad cyclists. but because there's few enough cyclists, people who aren't cyclists like to group us all together. when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. but when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists, as if we're all the same, because we're just a group of weirdos that you don't feel a part of.

notacoward 5y ago
> when a cyclist is an asshole, you jump to treating that as the behaviour of all cyclists No, I don't, and even if that was meant as a generic "you" it seems a bit like attempted mind-reading. How about not doing that? FWIW, the people I've worked with on maintaining my local path are mostly cyclists. No friction there. When people call out "on your left" (interestingly that's most of the women and damn few of the men) I always say "thank you" in return. I'm well aware that most cyclists are good people and I treat them as such, but there are enough - and an even higher percentage among cycling activists - that it's a problem. I guess I should have been more explicit about referring to that subset earlier, but other cyclists should be aware that those are the ones people remember (it's basic math + psychology) and exert peer pressure accordingly instead of getting aggressive themselves every time the issue comes up.
rootusrootus 5y ago
> when a driver or pedestrian is an asshole, you say the person was an asshole, because you understand that they don't represent all drivers or all pedestrians any more than you do. Ya know, I don't have to look any farther than this discussion to see people doing exactly that, painting all drivers as bad.
mrep 5y ago
In my experience, the percentage of cyclists that disregard the rules of the road are an order of magnitude higher than car drivers.
- wanderingstan 5y ago
  When people mention this, I always ask what percentage of cars are following the speed limit—a rule of the road all the more important when piloting a vehicle which can easily kill. Cyclists disregarding the rules of the road are lower percentage, and primarily endanger themselves.
  - mrep 5y ago
    Fare: I agree that cars speed more than cyclists blowing stop sings/red lights but the latter is far more dangerous in my opinion and I see them do it constantly. I had to slam on the breaks 3 weeks ago when making a left because of a biker completely running a red light in front of me.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      Count the proportion who run the light given the opportunity. All cyclists have the opportunity, but only the front car - if it stops, it blocks others. I find the number running lights to be similar.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#638693ba4bfa https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists...
rp1 5y ago
I think the difference is that people dislike cyclists because they like the drive, and cyclists make driving extremely dangerous. I can basically autopilot down any road with exclusive auto and pedestrian traffic, but introduce a cyclist and I have to pay extreme attention to avoid causing a tragedy. I totally support cyclists right to cycle, but I’m just providing some commentary on why cyclists as a whole are painted in a bad light. It’s not really about the behavior of cyclists.