5 ms·

> Helion is pitching 0.01$/kwh. That's the right level of ambition here. Does Helion have a demonstrator plant or a pilot? Or even a prototype? All I see is ..

> Helion is pitching 0.01$/kwh. That's the right level of ambition here. Does Helion have a demonstrator plant or a pilot? Or even a prototype? All I see is ... nothing. It is impossible for them to be in commercial operation in nine years even if they did have a working demonstrator. NIMBYism, fear of H-bombs, and the slow speed of regulation guarantee it.

jillesvangurp 5y ago
They have serious funding, so they have more than nothing. Given the investors don't seem to be naive idiots, I'd say they are making a calculated bet and there might be more to this than wishful thinking. You see nothing, they see opportunity. You can't both be right.
- tuatoru 5y ago
  Heard of Theranos?
moffkalast 5y ago
They're a company that's showed nothing so far and claims to know how to do something that's apparently eluded a dozen other fusion power projects with quite literally 1000 times more funding. The likes of ITER and Wendelstein, or the NIF. Helion's only got about 80M of venture investments, which in the field of energy innovation is basically chump change. I mean call me a sceptic, but I have a feeling they may not be able to completely deliver on their promise hah.
- threeseed 5y ago
  They’ve shown nothing to you. That doesn’t mean investors haven’t seen prototypes.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    If they had something substantial it would make sense to patent it, instead of keeping it hidden and the potential for it to be stolen as an option. Either the principle their reactor will work on isn't conceptually done yet or they're being seriously irresponsible with their achievements.
    - myownpetard 5y ago
      I think it's a reasonable assumption that US fusion companies would have the same patent policy as SpaceX. Elon is quoted in HBR, “We have essentially no patents. Our primary long-term competition is China. If we published patents, it would be farcical, because the Chinese would just use them as a recipe book."
      - rmbyrro 5y ago
        Or even the US government. Good luck to SpaceX asking the government to enforce its patents against... the government itself!
        credit_guy 5y ago
        Wait, what? The Government protects you against the Government itself all the time. What exactly is tha Bill of Rights?
      - kragen 5y ago
        That's the whole point of patents: to be used as a recipe book.
        VintageCool 5y ago
        The deal is that you provide the recipe book in exchange for legal protection and a short-term legal monopoly. The other side of that deal is not honored by China, which is Elon's point.
        5y ago
- justicezyx 5y ago
  Relatively tiny budget is not a sign of weakness. The history is teemed with well-founded ventures beaten by much less funded ones.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    Well I sure hope that ends up being the case, but unfortunately history is also teeming with startups promising the world, getting funding and then collapsing while getting nothing done.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    ITER is commonly cited as the most expensive science project of all time. I just don't believe a start up is on the forefront of research that even everyone involved with ITER is behind.
    - BurningFrog 5y ago
      ITER is committed to a certain large scale design. Helion is trying to do something very different and much smaller.
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  They announced a $500M - $2200M series E funding round on Friday: https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/05/helion-series-e/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/05/helion-series-e/
gpm 5y ago
They have built several prototypes, but none of the size necessary for useful energy production. Their prototype planned for 2024 is apparently also just supposed to be useful He3 production, but not useful energy production (though they do want it to produce more energy than it consumes). They also have the local mayor and governor saying good things about them, and given that they're aiming for aneutronic fusion I wouldn't expect regulation to be a huge hurtle, it's a very safe scheme with very minimal waste. (Just based on googling them a lot yesterday, and mostly from comments on /r/fusion)
tim333 5y ago
An optimistic take is they may be keeping a bit quiet on the details to avoid competition? Some results "first private fusion company to heat a fusion plasma to 100 million degrees Celsius" from their Trenta prototype and Altman says "...they and their team have built a generator that produces electricity. Helion has a clear path to net electricity by 2024..." The design is quite interesting - twin electromagnets shove plasma at a million miles an hour into the middle chamber and then hopefully fusion flings it out again pushing back on the currents in the electromagnets and producing electrical output directly. Bit like a petrol engine where the piston / crank compress the mix and then after ignition it shoves back harder adding energy to the crankshaft. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210622005366/en/Helion-Energy-Achieves-100-Million-Degrees-Celsius-Fusion-Fuel-Temperature-and-Confirms-16-Month-Continuous-Operation-of-Its-Fusion-Generator-Prototype https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210622005366/en/Hel...

jillesvangurp 5y ago

They have serious funding, so they have more than nothing. Given the investors don't seem to be naive idiots, I'd say they are making a calculated bet and there might be more to this than wishful thinking. You see nothing, they see opportunity. You can't both be right.

tuatoru 5y ago
Heard of Theranos?

moffkalast 5y ago

They're a company that's showed nothing so far and claims to know how to do something that's apparently eluded a dozen other fusion power projects with quite literally 1000 times more funding. The likes of ITER and Wendelstein, or the NIF. Helion's only got about 80M of venture investments, which in the field of energy innovation is basically chump change. I mean call me a sceptic, but I have a feeling they may not be able to completely deliver on their promise hah.

threeseed 5y ago
They’ve shown nothing to you. That doesn’t mean investors haven’t seen prototypes.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  If they had something substantial it would make sense to patent it, instead of keeping it hidden and the potential for it to be stolen as an option. Either the principle their reactor will work on isn't conceptually done yet or they're being seriously irresponsible with their achievements.
  - myownpetard 5y ago
    I think it's a reasonable assumption that US fusion companies would have the same patent policy as SpaceX. Elon is quoted in HBR, “We have essentially no patents. Our primary long-term competition is China. If we published patents, it would be farcical, because the Chinese would just use them as a recipe book."
    - rmbyrro 5y ago
      Or even the US government. Good luck to SpaceX asking the government to enforce its patents against... the government itself!
      - credit_guy 5y ago
        Wait, what? The Government protects you against the Government itself all the time. What exactly is tha Bill of Rights?
    - kragen 5y ago
      That's the whole point of patents: to be used as a recipe book.
      - VintageCool 5y ago
        The deal is that you provide the recipe book in exchange for legal protection and a short-term legal monopoly. The other side of that deal is not honored by China, which is Elon's point.
        5y ago
justicezyx 5y ago
Relatively tiny budget is not a sign of weakness. The history is teemed with well-founded ventures beaten by much less funded ones.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  Well I sure hope that ends up being the case, but unfortunately history is also teeming with startups promising the world, getting funding and then collapsing while getting nothing done.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  ITER is commonly cited as the most expensive science project of all time. I just don't believe a start up is on the forefront of research that even everyone involved with ITER is behind.
  - BurningFrog 5y ago
    ITER is committed to a certain large scale design. Helion is trying to do something very different and much smaller.
BurningFrog 5y ago
They announced a $500M - $2200M series E funding round on Friday: https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/05/helion-series-e/ https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/05/helion-series-e/

gpm 5y ago

They have built several prototypes, but none of the size necessary for useful energy production. Their prototype planned for 2024 is apparently also just supposed to be useful He3 production, but not useful energy production (though they do want it to produce more energy than it consumes). They also have the local mayor and governor saying good things about them, and given that they're aiming for aneutronic fusion I wouldn't expect regulation to be a huge hurtle, it's a very safe scheme with very minimal waste. (Just based on googling them a lot yesterday, and mostly from comments on /r/fusion)

tim333 5y ago

An optimistic take is they may be keeping a bit quiet on the details to avoid competition? Some results "first private fusion company to heat a fusion plasma to 100 million degrees Celsius" from their Trenta prototype and Altman says "...they and their team have built a generator that produces electricity. Helion has a clear path to net electricity by 2024..." The design is quite interesting - twin electromagnets shove plasma at a million miles an hour into the middle chamber and then hopefully fusion flings it out again pushing back on the currents in the electromagnets and producing electrical output directly. Bit like a petrol engine where the piston / crank compress the mix and then after ignition it shoves back harder adding energy to the crankshaft. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210622005366/en/Helion-Energy-Achieves-100-Million-Degrees-Celsius-Fusion-Fuel-Temperature-and-Confirms-16-Month-Continuous-Operation-of-Its-Fusion-Generator-Prototype https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210622005366/en/Hel...