7 ms·

I am willing to risk my karma by saying that people complaining about these things don't seem to get the following: - Going to college doesn't mean you deserve

by holdenc 15y ago

I am willing to risk my karma by saying that people complaining about these things don't seem to get the following: - Going to college doesn't mean you deserve a job more than someone else. Got an ivy league degree? A PhD? Get over it. - America is still a country where one can post up signs on a telephone pole to help someone move boxes, clean a house, or drive a car. Not ideal right? Maybe, but these people can earn $200 a day paid in cash if they work hard. Putting up signs and actually doing the work is usually a psychological barrier to many people though. - Being poor sucks, sure. But guess what -- learning to withstand it is a good skill to have. Perhaps one of the most indispensable ones a serious independent risk taking entrepreneur can have. If one can learn to be poor and deal with the associated social and practical problems, you'll have a fearlessness and sense of freedom that few office workers know. - Having a job does not mean someone is successful. And not having a job does not mean someone is a failure. People often tie their self worth to their job title, and therefore every sales person is now a "vice-president", and data entry workers are "analysts" -- title inflation is easier than salary inflation. In many cases, having one's time to do nothing but reflect and self-improve is preferable to one of these jobs.

scrod 15y ago
Don't worry, I don't have any sympathy for you, either. And in an unrelated point, a good companion to this article is Being Poor: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  Scalzi's article describes a fairly atypical poverty experience. It's a very inaccurate description for most American poor people. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1713461 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1713461
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
    - danssig 15y ago
      People have been complaining about the horrible innacuracy of BLS statistics for quite a while now [1]. I wouldn't expect someone arguing open mindedly (as opposed to someone who already knows what he wants to say and only needs the reports that agree) to cite BLS. [1] Just one example, google should turn up many more examples for you, should you actually be interested: http://www.businessinsider.com/trimtabs-heres-why-the-real-jobs-loss-number-was-5x-worse-than-what-the-bls-reported-2010-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/trimtabs-heres-why-the-real-j...
      - temphn 15y ago
        Moved discussion to thread below. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2915845 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2915845 > someone who already knows what he wants to say and only needs the reports that agree :) Are you really saying you don't already have an opinion on this issue? Please assume good faith.
        danssig 15y ago
        Of course I do: based on everything I've seen in my life and the people I actually know. Not based on some report that never seems to agree with actual "in the field" data.
        lotharbot 15y ago
        My experience disagrees with your experience, again based on my own life and people I actually know. The data, broadly speaking, matches up with my experience -- "some report" agrees with my "in the field" data, and with yummyfajitas' "in the field" data, and many others' "in the field" data. "Scalzi's article describes a fairly atypical poverty experience"; you and Scalzi are the outliers, not the norm.
      - 15y ago
temphn 15y ago
Exactly. Speaking as someone who was at one point unemployed, the first thing you need to do is take responsibility for your situation, rather than displacing the blame to anyone else. A lot of people just don't want to work hard. One of the people in that article was bitching and moaning about working a few hours on weekends! Beggars truly cannot be choosers. It is really not that hard to cut costs and live within your means when the internet provides infinite entertainment for free, as well as comparison price shopping, etcetera.
- danssig 15y ago
  I'm forced to assume you haven't seen much of the world if you think working hard has some correlation to financial success. There are many, many factors that determine success/failure and they all overshadow hard work by a large margin (that's not to say you don't need to work at all. Doing no work at all will usually make success much harder).
  - temphn 15y ago
    > if you think working hard has some correlation to financial success. Hmm. Have you seen the BLS statistics showing the positive correlation between the number of hours worked and income levels?
    - danssig 15y ago
      The people who work the hardest (e.g. single mother, people with 2 and 3 jobs) are not getting ahead as fast people who don't work as hard. Your confidence in these statistics strikes me as incredibly naive and self-serving. For example, how were these "hours worked" counted exactly? Did they get the people who work off-clock at Walmart to put down what they were really working? Did they get people working illegally (e.g. illegal immigrant, etc.) to clock their hours? The economy isn't some lab experiment with double blind testing and so on. Any data you think you have is going to have some major fundamental flaws.
      - temphn 15y ago
alecco 15y ago
But you are not considering the cost of living in those same places. The anxiety of those letters in the article is very well justified. The probability to fall into homelessness is much higher than what we'd like to believe. Go help in a soup kitchen or a shelter and get your dose of reality before labeling all these people you don't know lazy and entitled.
Tichy 15y ago
I think you quickly reach a point where you can't move boxes anymore for health reasons. Hard work has a tendency to wear on the body. Another problem is that while you are busy moving boxes, you can't look for a job that actually suits your skills. Sure, it beats starving, but "just do any job" might not actually be the best career advice in every situation.
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  Having a job makes it so much easier to find another job. Even if you are slopping out the John in McDonald's, your self-esteem and, most importantly, your <i> ability to get things done</i> is much higher. Of course, there is the difficulty of finding time to apply for other jobs to weigh it against, but I think the balance tips the other way.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    Speaking from experience? How do you interview at company X while you are flipping burgers?
    - hessenwolf 15y ago
      Yes, speaking from a hell of a lot of experience, being both employed and unemployed. I used to have a lot of appointments with the dentist when I was looking for a new job. More recently, I just made them meet me outside office hours. In fact, in a lot of professional companies they really would understand, "yeah, but I have a job to cover the bills so do you mind if I meet you at 6pm?"
      - foxit 15y ago
        You had dental insurance and "a lot of appointments with the dentist" while looking for a job? This was paid for by scrubbing toilets at McDonalds, or while on unemployment/just unemployed? Forgive me for being skeptical, but this doesn't match with my experience, nor the experience of anyone I know.
tpatke 15y ago
>Going to college doesn't mean you deserve a job I think the point was that this is affecting a wide range of people including the educated and hard working. I didn't see the entitlement slant. >America is still a country where one can post up signs on a telephone pole Sure. 9% of the working population can post a sign on a telephone pole. Let me know how that works out for you. >Being poor sucks, sure. But guess what -- learning to withstand it is a good skill to have. Ah, the benefits of a calcutta education! Maybe we can start a charity to help to these people realise how lucky they are? >not having a job does not mean someone is a failure. People are saying that when they have trouble paying their bills, that effects their self worth. This is different than saying that they are worthless because they are not a vice-president. My guess is you don't have a family and you have never had to go without. If you want to change the world, empathy would be a good skill to acquire.
- holdenc 15y ago
  I don't expect to change the world. The occasional unsolicited advice is all I aspire to. I do have a family and have gone without, and I have posted signs on telephone poles to get work and make ends meet. This actually was a much better education than my ivy league college degree, or my employment as a computer programmer. Posting signs on a telephone pole to get work is of course not the solution to mass unemployment, but does get at the essence of how an individual creates value for others (by offering a paid service) in exchange for money. Empathy is always a good skill. But I don't empathize with people who consider unemployment (in America) to be someone else's problem. While, people in America may not be happy with 9% unemployment, there are plenty of options for maintaining a quite good standard of living when compared to many countries where the median wage is much lower.

by holdenc 15y ago

scrod 15y ago

Don't worry, I don't have any sympathy for you, either. And in an unrelated point, a good companion to this article is Being Poor: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
yummyfajitas 15y ago
Scalzi's article describes a fairly atypical poverty experience. It's a very inaccurate description for most American poor people. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1713461 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1713461
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - danssig 15y ago
    People have been complaining about the horrible innacuracy of BLS statistics for quite a while now [1]. I wouldn't expect someone arguing open mindedly (as opposed to someone who already knows what he wants to say and only needs the reports that agree) to cite BLS. [1] Just one example, google should turn up many more examples for you, should you actually be interested: http://www.businessinsider.com/trimtabs-heres-why-the-real-jobs-loss-number-was-5x-worse-than-what-the-bls-reported-2010-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/trimtabs-heres-why-the-real-j...
    - temphn 15y ago
      Moved discussion to thread below. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2915845 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2915845 > someone who already knows what he wants to say and only needs the reports that agree :) Are you really saying you don't already have an opinion on this issue? Please assume good faith.
      - danssig 15y ago
        Of course I do: based on everything I've seen in my life and the people I actually know. Not based on some report that never seems to agree with actual "in the field" data.
        lotharbot 15y ago
        My experience disagrees with your experience, again based on my own life and people I actually know. The data, broadly speaking, matches up with my experience -- "some report" agrees with my "in the field" data, and with yummyfajitas' "in the field" data, and many others' "in the field" data. "Scalzi's article describes a fairly atypical poverty experience"; you and Scalzi are the outliers, not the norm.
    - 15y ago

temphn 15y ago

Exactly. Speaking as someone who was at one point unemployed, the first thing you need to do is take responsibility for your situation, rather than displacing the blame to anyone else. A lot of people just don't want to work hard. One of the people in that article was bitching and moaning about working a few hours on weekends! Beggars truly cannot be choosers. It is really not that hard to cut costs and live within your means when the internet provides infinite entertainment for free, as well as comparison price shopping, etcetera.

danssig 15y ago
I'm forced to assume you haven't seen much of the world if you think working hard has some correlation to financial success. There are many, many factors that determine success/failure and they all overshadow hard work by a large margin (that's not to say you don't need to work at all. Doing no work at all will usually make success much harder).
- temphn 15y ago
  > if you think working hard has some correlation to financial success. Hmm. Have you seen the BLS statistics showing the positive correlation between the number of hours worked and income levels?
  - danssig 15y ago
    The people who work the hardest (e.g. single mother, people with 2 and 3 jobs) are not getting ahead as fast people who don't work as hard. Your confidence in these statistics strikes me as incredibly naive and self-serving. For example, how were these "hours worked" counted exactly? Did they get the people who work off-clock at Walmart to put down what they were really working? Did they get people working illegally (e.g. illegal immigrant, etc.) to clock their hours? The economy isn't some lab experiment with double blind testing and so on. Any data you think you have is going to have some major fundamental flaws.
    - temphn 15y ago

alecco 15y ago

But you are not considering the cost of living in those same places. The anxiety of those letters in the article is very well justified. The probability to fall into homelessness is much higher than what we'd like to believe. Go help in a soup kitchen or a shelter and get your dose of reality before labeling all these people you don't know lazy and entitled.

Tichy 15y ago

I think you quickly reach a point where you can't move boxes anymore for health reasons. Hard work has a tendency to wear on the body. Another problem is that while you are busy moving boxes, you can't look for a job that actually suits your skills. Sure, it beats starving, but "just do any job" might not actually be the best career advice in every situation.

hessenwolf 15y ago
Having a job makes it so much easier to find another job. Even if you are slopping out the John in McDonald's, your self-esteem and, most importantly, your <i> ability to get things done</i> is much higher. Of course, there is the difficulty of finding time to apply for other jobs to weigh it against, but I think the balance tips the other way.
- Tichy 15y ago
  Speaking from experience? How do you interview at company X while you are flipping burgers?
  - hessenwolf 15y ago
    Yes, speaking from a hell of a lot of experience, being both employed and unemployed. I used to have a lot of appointments with the dentist when I was looking for a new job. More recently, I just made them meet me outside office hours. In fact, in a lot of professional companies they really would understand, "yeah, but I have a job to cover the bills so do you mind if I meet you at 6pm?"
    - foxit 15y ago
      You had dental insurance and "a lot of appointments with the dentist" while looking for a job? This was paid for by scrubbing toilets at McDonalds, or while on unemployment/just unemployed? Forgive me for being skeptical, but this doesn't match with my experience, nor the experience of anyone I know.

tpatke 15y ago

>Going to college doesn't mean you deserve a job I think the point was that this is affecting a wide range of people including the educated and hard working. I didn't see the entitlement slant. >America is still a country where one can post up signs on a telephone pole Sure. 9% of the working population can post a sign on a telephone pole. Let me know how that works out for you. >Being poor sucks, sure. But guess what -- learning to withstand it is a good skill to have. Ah, the benefits of a calcutta education! Maybe we can start a charity to help to these people realise how lucky they are? >not having a job does not mean someone is a failure. People are saying that when they have trouble paying their bills, that effects their self worth. This is different than saying that they are worthless because they are not a vice-president. My guess is you don't have a family and you have never had to go without. If you want to change the world, empathy would be a good skill to acquire.

holdenc 15y ago
I don't expect to change the world. The occasional unsolicited advice is all I aspire to. I do have a family and have gone without, and I have posted signs on telephone poles to get work and make ends meet. This actually was a much better education than my ivy league college degree, or my employment as a computer programmer. Posting signs on a telephone pole to get work is of course not the solution to mass unemployment, but does get at the essence of how an individual creates value for others (by offering a paid service) in exchange for money. Empathy is always a good skill. But I don't empathize with people who consider unemployment (in America) to be someone else's problem. While, people in America may not be happy with 9% unemployment, there are plenty of options for maintaining a quite good standard of living when compared to many countries where the median wage is much lower.