9 ms·

Master Foo and the Recruiter A technical recruiter, having discovered that that the ways of Unix hackers were strange to him, sought an audience with Master Fo

Master Foo and the Recruiter A technical recruiter, having discovered that that the ways of Unix hackers were strange to him, sought an audience with Master Foo to learn more about the Way. Master Foo met the recruiter in the HR offices of a large firm. The recruiter said, “I have observed that Unix hackers scowl or become annoyed when I ask them how many years of experience they have in a new programming language. Why is this so?” Master Foo stood, and began to pace across the office floor. The recruiter was puzzled, and asked “What are you doing?” “I am learning to walk,” replied Master Foo. “I saw you walk through that door” the recruiter exclaimed, “and you are not stumbling over your own feet. Obviously you already know how to walk.” “Yes, but this floor is new to me.” replied Master Foo. Upon hearing this, the recruiter was enlightened. Source: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/recruiter.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/recruiter.html

Jugurtha 5y ago
This is a delight, but there is some truth to it. Walking in Paris is different than walking in Algiers. I need to watch my steps in Algiers more than in Paris. There are yellow tiles in the sidewalk that are slippery and I must not walk on them when it trains (us, ud friction stuff). There also are loose tiles in Algiers that are similar to traps in the first Prince of Persia. You step on them, and they rotate to let your foot into the water. Master Foo would do well in Algiers. This is not an instance where the master points to the moon and me looking at the tiles.
- mLuby 5y ago
  One learns to walk differently in San Francisco, to avoid stepping in **it.** And of course if you walk without rhythm, it won't attract the worm.
  - Talanes 5y ago
    If you come from anywhere rural, watching your step in San Francisco is nothing. At least in SF you won't run into a cowpie that was barely submerged below the desert sand.
    - hiptobecubic 5y ago
      In SF it's not a cowpie.
      - Talanes 5y ago
        Sure, but is the peace of mind that it didn't come out of human worth stepping in something large enough that it gets around and into your shoes?
- datameta 5y ago
  I like expanding a good metaphor, but I think the idea is that I wouldn't discourage a prospective tourist from travelling to Odessa, Ukraine* because of the belgian block streets or to Anytown USA because their road infrastructure isn't pedestrian oriented. *disambiguation added
  - Jugurtha 5y ago
    Given that you mentioned the U.S., I assume that by Odessa you don't mean the capital of Ukraine, but the town in Texas?
    - jedmeyers 5y ago
      > I assume that by Odessa you don't mean the capital of Ukraine Odessa is not and was never the capital of Ukraine.
      - Jugurtha 5y ago
        I had a fleeting brain fart. Thanks/sorry for catching it. I know Ukraine's capital, but what's done is done.
      - datameta 5y ago
        Odessa was the 2nd or 3rd largest city in the Russian Empire and currently holds a similar status in Ukraine, afaik. This is largely due to it being a warm water port.
    - marnett 5y ago
      I would very much consider Odessa, Texas as “Anytown USA”. Not to mention I would question if the small town had Belgian blocks. I read the post as referring to Odessa, UK.
      - ethbr0 5y ago
        Because this made me curious, apparently "San Jose" [0] is the most popular worldwide place name. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_place_names https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_place_names
- omegalulw 5y ago
  Tbh your comment is an exemplar g what OP said: most people who know how to walk have probably have fallen on slippery surfaces and slopes, so they can easily figure out what to do when though the rules are different ("yellow tiles are bad when it rains").
  - Jugurtha 5y ago
    Yes. The example was a beautiful parable and I tried to write one, albeit more 'concrete' (pun intended on both concrete in construction and sidewalks, and programming with reference to concrete classes).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- biztos 5y ago
  I’ve never been to Algiers but having done a lot of walking in Bangkok, I like this metaphor. The fact that I love to walk in Bangkok proves that I am into Walking in a way more regular, more fit, longer-distance, better equipped walkers generally are not. Dunno what the programming equivalent would be… maybe if you’re into coding Windows apps in Brainfuck?
  - Jugurtha 5y ago
    Well, if you come to Algiers, hit me up. It's very cheap to live here. 1700 sqft ~ 170 square metres for 500 euros per month (this: https://mobile.twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/1451368193889538055/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/14513681938...). Hotel rooms downtown overseeing the sea for 15 euros per night. I'll hook you up with painters here as well.
jedberg 5y ago
The problem with this is that it works both ways. Someone who has walked on this floor already, who is familiar with the spot where it dips and the spot where that pole sticks out, will be able to walk more efficiently than someone who is walking across the floor the first time and must learn about these edge cases and gotchas specific to this floor. :)
- TrevorJ 5y ago
  It depends. There are people who's core skill is that they are amazing at learning generalizable lessons about approaching new terrain. They have a toolkit of methods that allow them to move into new territory and quickly gain competency, while avoiding most of the 'newbie' mistakes (or making them on the weekend on their own time). Other people excel at going deep on specificity. They know every detail and arcane quirk about THIS specific language/build system/toolchain. Both of these traits are desirable, but they will be great at slightly different things and under slightly different circumstances.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    > while avoiding most of the 'newbie' mistakes (or making them on the weekend on their own time). Why would one wait to make mistakes on their own time?
    - TrevorJ 5y ago
      Well, let me clarify. It's not something that employers should expect from employees. But it is a trait I notice in a lot of highly competent folk who are high achievers. They'll see something coming on the roadmap that they feel like they want to prep/educate themselves on, and then they will noodle on it for an hour or two when they get a chance. By the time it comes time to implement it 'for real', they have already gotten most of the learning curve out of the way.
- yumraj 5y ago
  And you are correct. The issue is that there are very people who have walked this floor already, and many are already in the building (company) walking the floor. So, if you can find people who have already walked this floor, great, they may be better. But, if you want access to a larger pool, then the next best is people who: 1) know how to walk and have been walking for years, and 2) have walked on many floors so that you can have confidence that they can walk this particular floor.
savant_penguin 5y ago
Except if the language is c or c++. Then a misstep shoots you and your dog. Better know those floors goddam well
- queuebert 5y ago
  You have stepped on a polymorph trap and segfaulted your dog.
gfxgirl 5y ago
It really depends doesn't it? Would it be a good idea to hire someone with 20 years experience in Python+Go+JavaScript+Perl+PHP for a C++ role? (note: my assumption is the first 4 languages rarely deal with direct memory issues were as the C++ role probably does. Ownership, allocation, deallocation, binary structure packing, more complex/low-level cross process issues, etc... Not to suggest this all can't be learned. Is GPU work unique or is it generic programming such that I should be ok to hire a programmer with zero GPU experience for a GPU role? Similarly, sometimes you're hoping for someone that can be productive immediately, not after 2-6 months of getting used to something new. For example, I trust that a Java programmer could write C# or Swift or Python, but I'd expect the Java programmer to know the Java standard library and common solutions fairly well but not know the C#, Swift, or Python standard library. I get it might short sited not to hire them for long term growth but right this second I might want someone who can hit the ground running?
- hippich 5y ago
  I am one of these python+go+javascript+perl+php folks (minus go and python)... Yet somehow I know about memory access and associated gotchas. I am even able to heavily modify, debug obscure C codebase. Even made my own LLVM pass that does quite a tricky modification of the LLVM bytecode prior to final compilation and linking. I learned about LLVM bytecode existence about 3 months ago. I started tinkering with this C project about 8 months ago... Yes, there are differences, but they are not fundamental. And with google, it really takes little time to learn things on the go. And with a team sharing necessary experience it will take no time at all. EDIT: "I might want someone who can hit the ground running" - this is luxury, so one wanting it gotta pay up... And such short projects where such quick ramp up is important perhaps will be a better suited for contracting out the work anyway.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    Know of and being proficient are two different things.
    - morelisp 5y ago
golergka 5y ago
But if you extend this analogy to ship captains, then you encounter maritime pilots, and their entire profession is dedicated to knowing how to sail in one exact geographical area.
- Cyphase 5y ago
  Of course the cost of learning on the fly and making mistakes is ridiculously higher for piloting a ship through a certain area than it is for programming/software work.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  Correct. There's a reason why you get geographically specialized pilots - little bits matter a lot
ourmandave 5y ago
Where's the Zen Slap? Don't leave me hanging bro!
P00RL3N0 5y ago
I think part of the problem is that many companies hire external staffing companies and expect them to find the "perfect candidate", and not someone who is "good enough". This combined with the Great Resignation means that both candidates and employers are likely being extremely picky with who they choose hire / work for. As someone who was recently on the market, it was rather strange to see so many companies desperate for talent whilst also being frustratingly meticulous with hiring decisions. I made the joke to myself that companies are being far pickier with their next hires at the moment than most people are with their romantic partners. The arbitrage opportunities in the market for human capital right now are just staggering.
spullara 5y ago
I'd say that language use-a-likes are very easily fungible. Some incomplete examples: Java/Go/C#/Python/JavaScript/Ruby/Kotlin (service languages), Scala/F#/Haskell/Ocaml (functional languages), and C/C++/Rust (system languages). As long as they have experience in the same category you're good.

Jugurtha 5y ago

This is a delight, but there is some truth to it. Walking in Paris is different than walking in Algiers. I need to watch my steps in Algiers more than in Paris. There are yellow tiles in the sidewalk that are slippery and I must not walk on them when it trains (us, ud friction stuff). There also are loose tiles in Algiers that are similar to traps in the first Prince of Persia. You step on them, and they rotate to let your foot into the water. Master Foo would do well in Algiers. This is not an instance where the master points to the moon and me looking at the tiles.

mLuby 5y ago
One learns to walk differently in San Francisco, to avoid stepping in **it.** And of course if you walk without rhythm, it won't attract the worm.
- Talanes 5y ago
  If you come from anywhere rural, watching your step in San Francisco is nothing. At least in SF you won't run into a cowpie that was barely submerged below the desert sand.
  - hiptobecubic 5y ago
    In SF it's not a cowpie.
    - Talanes 5y ago
      Sure, but is the peace of mind that it didn't come out of human worth stepping in something large enough that it gets around and into your shoes?
datameta 5y ago
I like expanding a good metaphor, but I think the idea is that I wouldn't discourage a prospective tourist from travelling to Odessa, Ukraine* because of the belgian block streets or to Anytown USA because their road infrastructure isn't pedestrian oriented. *disambiguation added
- Jugurtha 5y ago
  Given that you mentioned the U.S., I assume that by Odessa you don't mean the capital of Ukraine, but the town in Texas?
  - jedmeyers 5y ago
    > I assume that by Odessa you don't mean the capital of Ukraine Odessa is not and was never the capital of Ukraine.
    - Jugurtha 5y ago
      I had a fleeting brain fart. Thanks/sorry for catching it. I know Ukraine's capital, but what's done is done.
    - datameta 5y ago
      Odessa was the 2nd or 3rd largest city in the Russian Empire and currently holds a similar status in Ukraine, afaik. This is largely due to it being a warm water port.
  - marnett 5y ago
    I would very much consider Odessa, Texas as “Anytown USA”. Not to mention I would question if the small town had Belgian blocks. I read the post as referring to Odessa, UK.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      Because this made me curious, apparently "San Jose" [0] is the most popular worldwide place name. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_place_names https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popular_place_names
omegalulw 5y ago
Tbh your comment is an exemplar g what OP said: most people who know how to walk have probably have fallen on slippery surfaces and slopes, so they can easily figure out what to do when though the rules are different ("yellow tiles are bad when it rains").
- Jugurtha 5y ago
  Yes. The example was a beautiful parable and I tried to write one, albeit more 'concrete' (pun intended on both concrete in construction and sidewalks, and programming with reference to concrete classes).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
biztos 5y ago
I’ve never been to Algiers but having done a lot of walking in Bangkok, I like this metaphor. The fact that I love to walk in Bangkok proves that I am into Walking in a way more regular, more fit, longer-distance, better equipped walkers generally are not. Dunno what the programming equivalent would be… maybe if you’re into coding Windows apps in Brainfuck?
- Jugurtha 5y ago
  Well, if you come to Algiers, hit me up. It's very cheap to live here. 1700 sqft ~ 170 square metres for 500 euros per month (this: https://mobile.twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/1451368193889538055/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/14513681938...). Hotel rooms downtown overseeing the sea for 15 euros per night. I'll hook you up with painters here as well.

jedberg 5y ago

The problem with this is that it works both ways. Someone who has walked on this floor already, who is familiar with the spot where it dips and the spot where that pole sticks out, will be able to walk more efficiently than someone who is walking across the floor the first time and must learn about these edge cases and gotchas specific to this floor. :)

TrevorJ 5y ago
It depends. There are people who's core skill is that they are amazing at learning generalizable lessons about approaching new terrain. They have a toolkit of methods that allow them to move into new territory and quickly gain competency, while avoiding most of the 'newbie' mistakes (or making them on the weekend on their own time). Other people excel at going deep on specificity. They know every detail and arcane quirk about THIS specific language/build system/toolchain. Both of these traits are desirable, but they will be great at slightly different things and under slightly different circumstances.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > while avoiding most of the 'newbie' mistakes (or making them on the weekend on their own time). Why would one wait to make mistakes on their own time?
  - TrevorJ 5y ago
    Well, let me clarify. It's not something that employers should expect from employees. But it is a trait I notice in a lot of highly competent folk who are high achievers. They'll see something coming on the roadmap that they feel like they want to prep/educate themselves on, and then they will noodle on it for an hour or two when they get a chance. By the time it comes time to implement it 'for real', they have already gotten most of the learning curve out of the way.
yumraj 5y ago
And you are correct. The issue is that there are very people who have walked this floor already, and many are already in the building (company) walking the floor. So, if you can find people who have already walked this floor, great, they may be better. But, if you want access to a larger pool, then the next best is people who: 1) know how to walk and have been walking for years, and 2) have walked on many floors so that you can have confidence that they can walk this particular floor.

savant_penguin 5y ago

Except if the language is c or c++. Then a misstep shoots you and your dog. Better know those floors goddam well

queuebert 5y ago
You have stepped on a polymorph trap and segfaulted your dog.

gfxgirl 5y ago

It really depends doesn't it? Would it be a good idea to hire someone with 20 years experience in Python+Go+JavaScript+Perl+PHP for a C++ role? (note: my assumption is the first 4 languages rarely deal with direct memory issues were as the C++ role probably does. Ownership, allocation, deallocation, binary structure packing, more complex/low-level cross process issues, etc... Not to suggest this all can't be learned. Is GPU work unique or is it generic programming such that I should be ok to hire a programmer with zero GPU experience for a GPU role? Similarly, sometimes you're hoping for someone that can be productive immediately, not after 2-6 months of getting used to something new. For example, I trust that a Java programmer could write C# or Swift or Python, but I'd expect the Java programmer to know the Java standard library and common solutions fairly well but not know the C#, Swift, or Python standard library. I get it might short sited not to hire them for long term growth but right this second I might want someone who can hit the ground running?

hippich 5y ago
I am one of these python+go+javascript+perl+php folks (minus go and python)... Yet somehow I know about memory access and associated gotchas. I am even able to heavily modify, debug obscure C codebase. Even made my own LLVM pass that does quite a tricky modification of the LLVM bytecode prior to final compilation and linking. I learned about LLVM bytecode existence about 3 months ago. I started tinkering with this C project about 8 months ago... Yes, there are differences, but they are not fundamental. And with google, it really takes little time to learn things on the go. And with a team sharing necessary experience it will take no time at all. EDIT: "I might want someone who can hit the ground running" - this is luxury, so one wanting it gotta pay up... And such short projects where such quick ramp up is important perhaps will be a better suited for contracting out the work anyway.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  Know of and being proficient are two different things.
  - morelisp 5y ago

golergka 5y ago

But if you extend this analogy to ship captains, then you encounter maritime pilots, and their entire profession is dedicated to knowing how to sail in one exact geographical area.

Cyphase 5y ago
Of course the cost of learning on the fly and making mistakes is ridiculously higher for piloting a ship through a certain area than it is for programming/software work.
JAlexoid 5y ago
Correct. There's a reason why you get geographically specialized pilots - little bits matter a lot

ourmandave 5y ago

Where's the Zen Slap? Don't leave me hanging bro!

P00RL3N0 5y ago

I think part of the problem is that many companies hire external staffing companies and expect them to find the "perfect candidate", and not someone who is "good enough". This combined with the Great Resignation means that both candidates and employers are likely being extremely picky with who they choose hire / work for. As someone who was recently on the market, it was rather strange to see so many companies desperate for talent whilst also being frustratingly meticulous with hiring decisions. I made the joke to myself that companies are being far pickier with their next hires at the moment than most people are with their romantic partners. The arbitrage opportunities in the market for human capital right now are just staggering.

spullara 5y ago

I'd say that language use-a-likes are very easily fungible. Some incomplete examples: Java/Go/C#/Python/JavaScript/Ruby/Kotlin (service languages), Scala/F#/Haskell/Ocaml (functional languages), and C/C++/Rust (system languages). As long as they have experience in the same category you're good.