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> CCTV reported that Beijing Municipal National Security Bureau found data-sharing poses a security threat to military aircraft. FlightRadar24 (and indeed any

> CCTV reported that Beijing Municipal National Security Bureau found data-sharing poses a security threat to military aircraft. FlightRadar24 (and indeed any flight "radar" that consumers have access to) relies on ADS-B data, which is transmitted by the planes themselves. Any sensitive military aircraft would (should) not be transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these services.

dym_sh 5y ago
unless army planes go undercover and need to transmit that data to keep disguise of a regular civil aircrafts
- Kye 5y ago
  A plane that's obviously not what it claims to be to experienced observers will only make people more curious. edit: for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224 It would be just another government plane, but they went and made it interesting.
- queuebert 5y ago
  Does this happen?
  - _joel 5y ago
    I'd assume so, even in shipping, NASA recently disguised the James Webb shipment to French Guiana as a commercial vessel and set it's arrival destination somewhere in europe. So it's highly likely this happens in military context with flights too.
- jjwiseman 5y ago
  There is at least one U.S. Marshals aircraft that seems to intentionally broadcast a deceptive transponder ID. See https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/1455982715480653824 https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/145598271548065382... and https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/1415462136512278529 https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/141546213651227852...
celticninja 5y ago
Yes but it does allow people to track the private jets flown by the Chinese government.
- fortuna86 5y ago
  Bingo.
- notahacker 5y ago
  The irony is Flightradar24 accepts requests not to display sensitive aircraft and some of the other ADS-B aggregators don't...
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    But isn't telling a foreign entity "Hey, please censor information of these planes" almost equal to telling the jurisdiction of that entity "Hey, do you want a list of our planes you should pay attention to?". The Chinese government is involved with the big companies there, so they must assume the same is true for the US government and companies...
    - notahacker 5y ago
      Not really. They don't have to state that they're the Chinese government when requesting the data is removed, and I'm sure some of the aircraft already not displayed are very boring aircraft with very boring owners. It's not like the US government doesn't know where these aircraft are already and have an abundance of ways to identify whether they're "of interest" or not
brian_herman 5y ago
At least I can still see flightradar still in china.
jjwiseman 5y ago
There can be a bit more nuance to it than that. FlightRadar24 and other tracking sites do use ADS-B data broadcast by aircraft themselves, but they also use other information. There are other ways that aircraft that aren't broadcasting ADS-B can still show up on a map. 1. Mode S: Even if an aircraft isn't broadcasting its own position via ADS-B, if it's using Mode S its position can be multilaterated if you have a cooperating network of receivers (which is what FR24, ADS-B Exchange, etc. have). 2. TIS-B: An aircraft could be using Mode A/C, which generally can't even be multilaterated, or it could have its transponder turned off entirely and ATC can still use primary radar returns to broadcast a synthetic ADS-B-type target for safety, so that other nearby aircraft will see it show up on their traffic displays. The data won't tell you what aircraft it is, but you know where it is. And in fact, it's frequently possible for experienced observers to figure out what kind of aircraft it is and who's flying it based just on its track, speed, and altitude. I frequently see contacts on ADS-B Exchange in the Los Angeles area that are obviously fighters flying without ADS-B or Mode S, showing up as TIS-B. Military aircraft on sensitive operations can turn off their transponders, and I don't know if China uses TIS-B, but I just wanted to clarify that there is data besides ADS-B that gets used, and that a network of receivers has capabilities that a single receiver doesn't.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Iridium also has ADS-B receivers onboard the latest satellites going up to enable global coverage, although I don’t have context as to data access and pricing. https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-ads-b/ https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-ads...
  - andrepew 5y ago
    I believe for the satellites to pick you up you need ADS-B antenna diversity (an antenna on the top and bottom of the plane) which I don’t believe is very common yet because it has cost.
  - papercrane 5y ago
    You can buy access to the data from FlightAware. I've never been in a position to see the pricing, though I'm sure it's expensive.
jMyles 5y ago
> Any sensitive military aircraft would (should) not be transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these services. In addition to jjwiseman's comment that Mode S tracking and TIS-B are still widely useful (something you can easily see for yourself in many parts of the world, including around the 305th Bomb Wing in Tampa (near my recent home of St. Pete), which are a joy and marvel to watch), I want to add one more comment: I don't think it's reasonable to take as granted that any particular party (especially those which are taxpayer-funded ) "should" refrain from transmitting surveillance and telemetry data. Rather, I hope we develop a society in which anybody who is flying a large, fast, dangerous piece of metal through the sky is required to report, via such an open standard, these details for all to see.
xyzzy21 5y ago
The US DOD uses a different system specifically for this reason!
- rjsw 5y ago
  Sometimes it leaves ADS-B enabled to send a message. During the evacuation of Afghanistan there were B-52s over Kabul that could be tracked on Flightradar24.
  - paganel 5y ago
    The same for the NATO-attached airplanes flying close to the Russian air-space in the Black Sea area.
  - jjwiseman 5y ago
    Not to mention the Mi-17 (with possible CIA links) used in evacuating the "Salt Pit" black site: https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620 https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620

dym_sh 5y ago

unless army planes go undercover and need to transmit that data to keep disguise of a regular civil aircrafts

Kye 5y ago
A plane that's obviously not what it claims to be to experienced observers will only make people more curious. edit: for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152224 It would be just another government plane, but they went and made it interesting.
queuebert 5y ago
Does this happen?
- _joel 5y ago
  I'd assume so, even in shipping, NASA recently disguised the James Webb shipment to French Guiana as a commercial vessel and set it's arrival destination somewhere in europe. So it's highly likely this happens in military context with flights too.
jjwiseman 5y ago
There is at least one U.S. Marshals aircraft that seems to intentionally broadcast a deceptive transponder ID. See https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/1455982715480653824 https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/145598271548065382... and https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/1415462136512278529 https://twitter.com/tropicostation/status/141546213651227852...

celticninja 5y ago

Yes but it does allow people to track the private jets flown by the Chinese government.

fortuna86 5y ago
Bingo.
notahacker 5y ago
The irony is Flightradar24 accepts requests not to display sensitive aircraft and some of the other ADS-B aggregators don't...
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  But isn't telling a foreign entity "Hey, please censor information of these planes" almost equal to telling the jurisdiction of that entity "Hey, do you want a list of our planes you should pay attention to?". The Chinese government is involved with the big companies there, so they must assume the same is true for the US government and companies...
  - notahacker 5y ago
    Not really. They don't have to state that they're the Chinese government when requesting the data is removed, and I'm sure some of the aircraft already not displayed are very boring aircraft with very boring owners. It's not like the US government doesn't know where these aircraft are already and have an abundance of ways to identify whether they're "of interest" or not

brian_herman 5y ago

At least I can still see flightradar still in china.

jjwiseman 5y ago

There can be a bit more nuance to it than that. FlightRadar24 and other tracking sites do use ADS-B data broadcast by aircraft themselves, but they also use other information. There are other ways that aircraft that aren't broadcasting ADS-B can still show up on a map. 1. Mode S: Even if an aircraft isn't broadcasting its own position via ADS-B, if it's using Mode S its position can be multilaterated if you have a cooperating network of receivers (which is what FR24, ADS-B Exchange, etc. have). 2. TIS-B: An aircraft could be using Mode A/C, which generally can't even be multilaterated, or it could have its transponder turned off entirely and ATC can still use primary radar returns to broadcast a synthetic ADS-B-type target for safety, so that other nearby aircraft will see it show up on their traffic displays. The data won't tell you what aircraft it is, but you know where it is. And in fact, it's frequently possible for experienced observers to figure out what kind of aircraft it is and who's flying it based just on its track, speed, and altitude. I frequently see contacts on ADS-B Exchange in the Los Angeles area that are obviously fighters flying without ADS-B or Mode S, showing up as TIS-B. Military aircraft on sensitive operations can turn off their transponders, and I don't know if China uses TIS-B, but I just wanted to clarify that there is data besides ADS-B that gets used, and that a network of receivers has capabilities that a single receiver doesn't.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Iridium also has ADS-B receivers onboard the latest satellites going up to enable global coverage, although I don’t have context as to data access and pricing. https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-ads-b/ https://aireon.com/resources/overview-materials/its-just-ads...
- andrepew 5y ago
  I believe for the satellites to pick you up you need ADS-B antenna diversity (an antenna on the top and bottom of the plane) which I don’t believe is very common yet because it has cost.
- papercrane 5y ago
  You can buy access to the data from FlightAware. I've never been in a position to see the pricing, though I'm sure it's expensive.

jMyles 5y ago

> Any sensitive military aircraft would (should) not be transmitting this data, and so would not show up on these services. In addition to jjwiseman's comment that Mode S tracking and TIS-B are still widely useful (something you can easily see for yourself in many parts of the world, including around the 305th Bomb Wing in Tampa (near my recent home of St. Pete), which are a joy and marvel to watch), I want to add one more comment: I don't think it's reasonable to take as granted that any particular party (especially those which are taxpayer-funded ) "should" refrain from transmitting surveillance and telemetry data. Rather, I hope we develop a society in which anybody who is flying a large, fast, dangerous piece of metal through the sky is required to report, via such an open standard, these details for all to see.

xyzzy21 5y ago

The US DOD uses a different system specifically for this reason!

rjsw 5y ago
Sometimes it leaves ADS-B enabled to send a message. During the evacuation of Afghanistan there were B-52s over Kabul that could be tracked on Flightradar24.
- paganel 5y ago
  The same for the NATO-attached airplanes flying close to the Russian air-space in the Black Sea area.
- jjwiseman 5y ago
  Not to mention the Mi-17 (with possible CIA links) used in evacuating the "Salt Pit" black site: https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620 https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1428809921156591620