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Firstly, your source is incredibly biased - it is a Palestinian advocacy organization. Secondly, you make the claim that they attained the evidence by torture

by q1w2 5y ago

Firstly, your source is incredibly biased - it is a Palestinian advocacy organization. Secondly, you make the claim that they attained the evidence by torture - with no evidence of such. The fact remains that two Palestinian accountants testified in court that these "charity" organizations were funneling money to the PFLP terrorist organization. HRW and AI may not think that the evidence is strong enough, and maybe it isn't, but given the testimony, it seems much more reasonable that the Israeli gov't conduct espionage on them if they suspect there is possible terrorist financing happening. Let's also remember that HRW and AI are hardly unbiased sources when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conflict. They have both repeatedly taken sides in that conflict. This also wouldn't be the first case of a "human rights" organization in the middle east being used to funnel money that ends up in the hands of terrorists, so I think espionage on these organizations should be expected, and is likely ubiquitous, whether they use NSO tools or not.

Quanttek 5y ago
1. it's not an "advocacy organization" but a magazine. And this a) doesn't change the fact that the dossier provides no evidence and b) other media has reported on the dossier, including The Intercept [1]. 2. I only mentioned that torture has been alleged. Shin Bet has a long-standing pattern of using torture and other inhuman or degrading treatment to obtain confessions. 3. These two disgraced accountants only provided assertions on general hypotheses, no concrete evidence. Such testimony isn't worth much. To quote +972 [see above]: > An examination of the dossier’s “evidence,” however, along with an examination of the summaries of Abdat’s and Hamuda’s repeated interrogations, reveals that the accountants — who did not work for any of the six targeted organizations — based most of their accusations on general hypotheses, what they alleged was “common knowledge,” or information they claimed was widely “known.” > More importantly, even Abdat’s and Hamuda’s unsubstantiated testimonies indicate, at most, that some of these organizations were involved in civic and public activities such as student events, helping the sick, and poetry classes that form part of the PFLP’s work as a movement in Palestinian society. A lawyer representing one of the accountants, Abdat, further alleges that his client may have been pressured to provide testimony following interrogation methods that could amount to torture or ill-treatment. Their reliability must also be questioned: > Moreover, the summaries of Abdat and Hamuda’s interrogations reveal how poorly acquainted they were with the six organizations listed in Gantz’s declaration. For example, during his interrogation on March 31, Hamuda mentioned the six groups but erroneously noted that parliamentarian Khalida Jarrar is the director of Addameer, an organization that defends the rights of Palestinian political prisoners, despite the fact that she has not headed the organization since 2006 (Addameer’s current director is attorney Sahar Francis). 4. I'm not sure we should accuse AI and HRW as biased, simply for standing up for human rights in Israel, which, considering where the majority of violation lie and who the occupying power is, will necessarily focus on one player. After all, it is not the PA but the Israeli army that demolishes homes or holds people in indefinite "administrative" detention. --- In short, it is up for the Israeli government to prove publicly - beyond a reasonable doubt - that these severe allegations of terrorism funding are true and that the designation as terrorist associations is justified. It is not up to those organizations and their defenders to prove a negative. Innocent until proven guilty is after all the foundation of state respecting the rule of law. A designation based on secret "evidence", combined with the fact that even confidential dossiers don't offer a shred of evidence, doesn't make this look like a justified designation [1] https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-palestinian-rights-terrorist/ https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-pa...
- starik36 5y ago
  Seeing how they choose to manipulate the information, I can no longer take anything Intercept publishes seriously. https://greenwald.substack.com/p/my-resignation-from-the-intercept https://greenwald.substack.com/p/my-resignation-from-the-int... https://theintercept.com/2020/10/29/glenn-greenwald-resigns-the-intercept/ https://theintercept.com/2020/10/29/glenn-greenwald-resigns-...

by q1w2 5y ago

Quanttek 5y ago

1. it's not an "advocacy organization" but a magazine. And this a) doesn't change the fact that the dossier provides no evidence and b) other media has reported on the dossier, including The Intercept [1]. 2. I only mentioned that torture has been alleged. Shin Bet has a long-standing pattern of using torture and other inhuman or degrading treatment to obtain confessions. 3. These two disgraced accountants only provided assertions on general hypotheses, no concrete evidence. Such testimony isn't worth much. To quote +972 [see above]: > An examination of the dossier’s “evidence,” however, along with an examination of the summaries of Abdat’s and Hamuda’s repeated interrogations, reveals that the accountants — who did not work for any of the six targeted organizations — based most of their accusations on general hypotheses, what they alleged was “common knowledge,” or information they claimed was widely “known.” > More importantly, even Abdat’s and Hamuda’s unsubstantiated testimonies indicate, at most, that some of these organizations were involved in civic and public activities such as student events, helping the sick, and poetry classes that form part of the PFLP’s work as a movement in Palestinian society. A lawyer representing one of the accountants, Abdat, further alleges that his client may have been pressured to provide testimony following interrogation methods that could amount to torture or ill-treatment. Their reliability must also be questioned: > Moreover, the summaries of Abdat and Hamuda’s interrogations reveal how poorly acquainted they were with the six organizations listed in Gantz’s declaration. For example, during his interrogation on March 31, Hamuda mentioned the six groups but erroneously noted that parliamentarian Khalida Jarrar is the director of Addameer, an organization that defends the rights of Palestinian political prisoners, despite the fact that she has not headed the organization since 2006 (Addameer’s current director is attorney Sahar Francis). 4. I'm not sure we should accuse AI and HRW as biased, simply for standing up for human rights in Israel, which, considering where the majority of violation lie and who the occupying power is, will necessarily focus on one player. After all, it is not the PA but the Israeli army that demolishes homes or holds people in indefinite "administrative" detention. --- In short, it is up for the Israeli government to prove publicly - beyond a reasonable doubt - that these severe allegations of terrorism funding are true and that the designation as terrorist associations is justified. It is not up to those organizations and their defenders to prove a negative. Innocent until proven guilty is after all the foundation of state respecting the rule of law. A designation based on secret "evidence", combined with the fact that even confidential dossiers don't offer a shred of evidence, doesn't make this look like a justified designation [1] https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-palestinian-rights-terrorist/ https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-pa...

starik36 5y ago
Seeing how they choose to manipulate the information, I can no longer take anything Intercept publishes seriously. https://greenwald.substack.com/p/my-resignation-from-the-intercept https://greenwald.substack.com/p/my-resignation-from-the-int... https://theintercept.com/2020/10/29/glenn-greenwald-resigns-the-intercept/ https://theintercept.com/2020/10/29/glenn-greenwald-resigns-...