6 ms·

I wonder if there is a market for a smart phone with a hardware disconnect switch for all of its sensors? Mic, accelerometers, camera, ambient light, etc? I'd

by kypro 5y ago

I wonder if there is a market for a smart phone with a hardware disconnect switch for all of its sensors? Mic, accelerometers, camera, ambient light, etc? I'd love to be able to flick a switch and just disable everything. I'm paranoid about my devices listening to me without my permission. The only issue is that for such a feature to be useful it probably couldn't disconnect everything, wifi and mobile data would probably need to remain software switches for example.

fsflover 5y ago
> I wonder if there is a market for a smart phone with a hardware disconnect switch for all of its sensors? Mic, accelerometers, camera, ambient light, etc? https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/posts/lockdown-mode-on-the-librem-5-beyond-hardware-kill-switches/ https://puri.sm/posts/lockdown-mode-on-the-librem-5-beyond-h...
- sva_ 5y ago
  The Pinephone also has hardware switches: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/File:Pinephone_backside.png https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/File:Pinephone_backside.png Wish the hardware was better.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    But Pinephone's switches are not easily accessible: You can't switch your microphone on while receiving a call (unlike on Librem 5). Also, no lockdown mode for sensors.
    - megous 5y ago
      You can't really trust HW switches either. Someone who has physical control over the phone for a while can easily short the switch so that it's basically on all the time no matter the position. (they can do it at the same time they'll be installing the SW backdoor) ;)
      - fsflover 5y ago
        > Someone who has physical control over the phone for a while So you shouldn't give your phone to anyone you do not trust? (Also, AFAIK, you can simply reinstall all software yourself.)
        megous 5y ago
        If using trusted software is enough, then HW switches are pointless anyway.
        fsflover 5y ago
        Nothing is "enough". It's defense in depth.
      - skinkestek 5y ago
        It might be meant as a joke but I am so tired of every comment that seems to imply that trying to do anything is pointless: Yes, a significantly advanced adversary can always get your communications if they want, but every time someone does choose the more secure option it raises the bar for them.
        megous 5y ago
        What's the point of security measures if you just dismiss their weak points? "FBI is comming for me, but I have my HDD encrypted..." Well, how well did HDD encryption serve that guy who the FBI just pulled the turned on/unlocked notebook from before he noticed what's going on and was able to react? He might just as well not bothered, when he knew "FBI" is in his threat model, and didn't account for this obvious attack in any real way.
        skinkestek 5y ago
        It is about the tone of the message. If you had instead written something along the lines of "for those who have mighty adversaries and who actually need this for their own security, one should be aware that things like hardware switches only go so far" and then an explanation. Instead you wrote it in a way that I and probably a lot of others took to mean: even hardware switches doesn't matter.
    - swiley 5y ago
      IMO: the software on the PinePhone is significantly more trustworthy than most devices (as long as you're not careless or install non-free apps.) The switches are there more for the sake of completeness but I would just as soon trust muting the microphone in pavucontrol.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        It depends on your threat model.
    - viccuad 5y ago
      someone should just 3d print a back case for the pinephone that exposes them. Or better, instruct on how to cut the current case, and 3d print a lever system that matches the hole, for easily action on the switches from outside.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        > someone should just 3d print a back case for the pinephone that exposes them. I have a Pinephone. Those switches are very tiny and probably not designed for everyday switching, even if you connect them to larger ones.
  - rjsw 5y ago
    The switches don't disable the accelerometer and magnetometer.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    > Wish the hardware was better. Same here, the hardware is really underwhelming.
  - weberer 5y ago
    >Wish the hardware was better Well I have good news for you https://www.pine64.org/2021/10/15/october-update-introducing-the-pinephone-pro/ https://www.pine64.org/2021/10/15/october-update-introducing...
    - sva_ 5y ago
      Well that's great news! Sadly, the camera is still a potato, relatively speaking, compared to ie Pixel 6 Pro or S21 Ultra. And the camera is pretty much the main criteria of choosing a phone for me, because I like the outdoors a lot, and I take many photos (and I can't get myself to carry around a 'real' camera - or getting into that whole topic.)
- makeitagoood 5y ago
  Librem 5 is basically a scam at this point, many people who ordered it 4 years ago still haven't received it. It barely qualifies as a "mobile phone" with how bad it's battery life and efficiency is. Plus it's 1200$. Hard Pass.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    Did you hear about the supply chain problem, which even Apple suffers from?
- kypro 5y ago
  Thanks for the link. This looked too good to be true until I clicked the order now button... $1,199... I normally go for budget smart phones in the range of $100 - $200. I'd pay more for something with decent build quality and a privacy focus, but $1,199 is a little pricey for me.
  - makeitagoood 5y ago
    Even if it was 300$ it would still be a terrible phone. It's extremely inefficient and battery life is hilariously bad, the device itself is advertised as an extremely secure device but it is actually not secure at all, you can't even easily update the modem firmware. The company itself has a history of lying and their CEO is a habitual liar. The PinePhone, while not secure either, provides basically the exact same thing at a fraction of the cost (150$) and slightly weaker specs. Pine64 is now making a PinePhone Pro which is significantly faster than the Librem 5 at a fraction of the cost so why even bother with Purism at all?
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > It's extremely inefficient and battery life is hilariously bad This is false: The phone has no suspend mode yet, and its battery life is 10+ hours. After it's implemented, it will be on pair with an Android: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#21-how-long-will-be-the-battery-life-of-the-librem-5-evergreen https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque.... > you can't even easily update the modem firmware This is also false: You can upgrade the firmware. https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#39-will-the-librem-5-get-proprietary-firmware-updates https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... > The PinePhone, while not secure either, provides basically the exact same thing at a fraction of the cost This is not the exact thing at all. Apart from huge differences in the performance [0], Pine64 does not develop any software and most Pinephone users are using Phosh developed by Purism. Linux phones can't be sustainable without professional developers, just with volunteers. Also, both phones are more secure than Android, depending on what you understand by "security": https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#43-how-secure-is-the-librem-5-compared-to-an-android-phone https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... [0] https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#16-how-does-the-librem-5-compare-to-other-linux-phones-pinephone-volla-phone-cosmo-etc https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
mindslight 5y ago
> I'm paranoid about my devices listening to me without my permission "Your devices" aren't listening to you. What is listening to you is hostile third party software that you've been goaded into running on your devices (whether by javascript, apps, chipset, or as part of the OS), that has been insufficiently sandboxed. Hardware switches are just mitigations for an insecure OS that violates its fiduciary duty to the user, and a less good solution than having those capabilities built right into the OS. If sensor switches became popular, then hostile apps could just refuse to work when those sensors were off - just as hostile apps will refuse to work if you do not grant them requested permissions. Whereas a real user-representing OS would allow one to designate that an app should receive synthetic data for any sensor - eg set a fixed "GPS location" and then add some plausible sounding noise so that an app couldn't tell it apart from a stationary phone. But what is really needed for sustainable user privacy is user-representing software that talks to adversarial counterparties solely through well-defined protocols. This isn't necessarily workable for new innovations, but for all well established technologies (messaging, pictures, video chat, social networking, message boards, etc) there should be Free clients that interoperate with the proprietary systems. Much has been said about "breaking up" Big Tech to constrain their power, but mandating such interoperability would be a much better approach to antitrust.

by kypro 5y ago

fsflover 5y ago

> I wonder if there is a market for a smart phone with a hardware disconnect switch for all of its sensors? Mic, accelerometers, camera, ambient light, etc? https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/posts/lockdown-mode-on-the-librem-5-beyond-hardware-kill-switches/ https://puri.sm/posts/lockdown-mode-on-the-librem-5-beyond-h...

sva_ 5y ago
The Pinephone also has hardware switches: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/File:Pinephone_backside.png https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/File:Pinephone_backside.png Wish the hardware was better.
- fsflover 5y ago
  But Pinephone's switches are not easily accessible: You can't switch your microphone on while receiving a call (unlike on Librem 5). Also, no lockdown mode for sensors.
  - megous 5y ago
    You can't really trust HW switches either. Someone who has physical control over the phone for a while can easily short the switch so that it's basically on all the time no matter the position. (they can do it at the same time they'll be installing the SW backdoor) ;)
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > Someone who has physical control over the phone for a while So you shouldn't give your phone to anyone you do not trust? (Also, AFAIK, you can simply reinstall all software yourself.)
      - megous 5y ago
        If using trusted software is enough, then HW switches are pointless anyway.
        fsflover 5y ago
        Nothing is "enough". It's defense in depth.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      It might be meant as a joke but I am so tired of every comment that seems to imply that trying to do anything is pointless: Yes, a significantly advanced adversary can always get your communications if they want, but every time someone does choose the more secure option it raises the bar for them.
      - megous 5y ago
        What's the point of security measures if you just dismiss their weak points? "FBI is comming for me, but I have my HDD encrypted..." Well, how well did HDD encryption serve that guy who the FBI just pulled the turned on/unlocked notebook from before he noticed what's going on and was able to react? He might just as well not bothered, when he knew "FBI" is in his threat model, and didn't account for this obvious attack in any real way.
        skinkestek 5y ago
        It is about the tone of the message. If you had instead written something along the lines of "for those who have mighty adversaries and who actually need this for their own security, one should be aware that things like hardware switches only go so far" and then an explanation. Instead you wrote it in a way that I and probably a lot of others took to mean: even hardware switches doesn't matter.
  - swiley 5y ago
    IMO: the software on the PinePhone is significantly more trustworthy than most devices (as long as you're not careless or install non-free apps.) The switches are there more for the sake of completeness but I would just as soon trust muting the microphone in pavucontrol.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      It depends on your threat model.
  - viccuad 5y ago
    someone should just 3d print a back case for the pinephone that exposes them. Or better, instruct on how to cut the current case, and 3d print a lever system that matches the hole, for easily action on the switches from outside.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > someone should just 3d print a back case for the pinephone that exposes them. I have a Pinephone. Those switches are very tiny and probably not designed for everyday switching, even if you connect them to larger ones.
- rjsw 5y ago
  The switches don't disable the accelerometer and magnetometer.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > Wish the hardware was better. Same here, the hardware is really underwhelming.
- weberer 5y ago
  >Wish the hardware was better Well I have good news for you https://www.pine64.org/2021/10/15/october-update-introducing-the-pinephone-pro/ https://www.pine64.org/2021/10/15/october-update-introducing...
  - sva_ 5y ago
    Well that's great news! Sadly, the camera is still a potato, relatively speaking, compared to ie Pixel 6 Pro or S21 Ultra. And the camera is pretty much the main criteria of choosing a phone for me, because I like the outdoors a lot, and I take many photos (and I can't get myself to carry around a 'real' camera - or getting into that whole topic.)
makeitagoood 5y ago
Librem 5 is basically a scam at this point, many people who ordered it 4 years ago still haven't received it. It barely qualifies as a "mobile phone" with how bad it's battery life and efficiency is. Plus it's 1200$. Hard Pass.
- fsflover 5y ago
  Did you hear about the supply chain problem, which even Apple suffers from?
kypro 5y ago
Thanks for the link. This looked too good to be true until I clicked the order now button... $1,199... I normally go for budget smart phones in the range of $100 - $200. I'd pay more for something with decent build quality and a privacy focus, but $1,199 is a little pricey for me.
- makeitagoood 5y ago
  Even if it was 300$ it would still be a terrible phone. It's extremely inefficient and battery life is hilariously bad, the device itself is advertised as an extremely secure device but it is actually not secure at all, you can't even easily update the modem firmware. The company itself has a history of lying and their CEO is a habitual liar. The PinePhone, while not secure either, provides basically the exact same thing at a fraction of the cost (150$) and slightly weaker specs. Pine64 is now making a PinePhone Pro which is significantly faster than the Librem 5 at a fraction of the cost so why even bother with Purism at all?
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > It's extremely inefficient and battery life is hilariously bad This is false: The phone has no suspend mode yet, and its battery life is 10+ hours. After it's implemented, it will be on pair with an Android: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#21-how-long-will-be-the-battery-life-of-the-librem-5-evergreen https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque.... > you can't even easily update the modem firmware This is also false: You can upgrade the firmware. https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#39-will-the-librem-5-get-proprietary-firmware-updates https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... > The PinePhone, while not secure either, provides basically the exact same thing at a fraction of the cost This is not the exact thing at all. Apart from huge differences in the performance [0], Pine64 does not develop any software and most Pinephone users are using Phosh developed by Purism. Linux phones can't be sustainable without professional developers, just with volunteers. Also, both phones are more secure than Android, depending on what you understand by "security": https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#43-how-secure-is-the-librem-5-compared-to-an-android-phone https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... [0] https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#16-how-does-the-librem-5-compare-to-other-linux-phones-pinephone-volla-phone-cosmo-etc https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...

mindslight 5y ago

> I'm paranoid about my devices listening to me without my permission "Your devices" aren't listening to you. What is listening to you is hostile third party software that you've been goaded into running on your devices (whether by javascript, apps, chipset, or as part of the OS), that has been insufficiently sandboxed. Hardware switches are just mitigations for an insecure OS that violates its fiduciary duty to the user, and a less good solution than having those capabilities built right into the OS. If sensor switches became popular, then hostile apps could just refuse to work when those sensors were off - just as hostile apps will refuse to work if you do not grant them requested permissions. Whereas a real user-representing OS would allow one to designate that an app should receive synthetic data for any sensor - eg set a fixed "GPS location" and then add some plausible sounding noise so that an app couldn't tell it apart from a stationary phone. But what is really needed for sustainable user privacy is user-representing software that talks to adversarial counterparties solely through well-defined protocols. This isn't necessarily workable for new innovations, but for all well established technologies (messaging, pictures, video chat, social networking, message boards, etc) there should be Free clients that interoperate with the proprietary systems. Much has been said about "breaking up" Big Tech to constrain their power, but mandating such interoperability would be a much better approach to antitrust.