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It just works is a huge one. Driver issues and OS versions are such a huge pain even now. Many games require brand new drivers (which very often very very unsta

It just works is a huge one. Driver issues and OS versions are such a huge pain even now. Many games require brand new drivers (which very often very very unstable), and the MS store required your windows version to be up to date, and everyone has their story about windows update being stuck for months on end. That's before you get into the "openness" of PC - if you want to play a game on steam but your friend has bought it on the Microsoft store how do you play together? How do you voice chat? What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed?

zeusk 5y ago
> you want to play a game on steam but your friend has bought it on the Microsoft store how do you play together? How do you voice chat? Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable. They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game. > What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed? File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?
- maccard 5y ago
  > Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable. That only launches the game through the correct store. If the game doesn't implement cross play, you can't play together. > They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game. But you're trying to be in game with the person, and again if the game doesn't do in-game voice chat, you have to find alternatives. On a console you join a party and the software correctly handles the cases around "do I want to put you in a voice chat channel for your game" (because it has to to pass certification). > File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues? Really helpfully closed after 30 days of inactivity. https://github.com/docker/for-win/issues/42 https://github.com/docker/for-win/issues/42. (I didn't make this bug, but I found it, and just logged onto my xbox instead).
  - zeusk 5y ago
    PC games don’t need “cross play” FYI, you create a server and it is visible for anyone who purchased the game regardless of platform. I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people. Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue.
    - maccard 5y ago
      > PC games don’t need “cross play” FYI, you create a server and it is visible for anyone who purchased the game regardless of platform. That is very much game specific. As an example, Deep Rock Galactic doesn't support playing between Steam and the MS store [0] > I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people. All of those options require you to coordinate your play outside of the game and the platform. If you are playing Sea of Thieves on Steam with friends using steam voice chat, and one person joins via the MS store, you need to figure out out how to get them into the correct place. If you're all on xbox, they just join your party. > Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue. So it's not just file a bug report, it's file a bug report and provide follow up information. As a programmer, that's fine, but what if my kids want to play minecraft with their friends? [0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info
      - zeusk 5y ago
        > So it's not just file a bug report, it's file a bug report and provide follow up information. As a programmer, that's fine, but what if my kids want to play minecraft with their friends? I’d say your kids pc doesn’t need docker on it. You can’t eat the cake and have it too. If you’re technically skilled to be using containers and virtualization, least you could do is file a helpful bug report.
        maccard 5y ago
        So now my kids need a separate PC? I thought the point of this was that my PC could do everything?
- chalupa-man 5y ago
  > Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable. The multiplayer services are independent and crossplay is an exception, that's what I think they were getting at. Being able to launch an executable from a different store doesn't matter if your copy uses Steamworks for multiplayer and the copy from the MS store doesn't support that. > File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues? It's not a hypothetical issue or a bug, it's a common problem for games that use anti-cheat software. Refusing to run when virtualization features are turned on or virtualization software is installed/present is a common tactic they use and if you file a report it'll usually get immediately closed as wontfix, because it's a tradeoff they decide to make. E.g. https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019809319-You-need-to-disable-Hyper-V-to-launch-FACEIT-AC https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019809319-Yo...
  - zeusk 5y ago
    > The multiplayer services are independent and crossplay is an exception, that's what I think they were getting at. Being able to launch an executable from a different store doesn't matter if your copy uses Steamworks for multiplayer and the copy from the MS store doesn't support that. But that’s not the case from the games I’ve played unless you’re getting into hypotheticals. I’ve played on Xbox live with my cousins on steam in F1 2020, age of empires, gta 4, halo. The only friction is initial invites from the specific platform but once we’ve played in the same server, it’s very easy to send in-game invites. As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games. COD4 was absolutely ruined because of it. Virtualization isn’t very widespread but I’m sure they’ll be more accommodative soon as WSL and Android ship by default on Windows.
    - maccard 5y ago
      > But that’s not the case from the games I’ve played unless you’re getting into hypotheticals. No need for hypotheticals, Deep Rock Galactic [0] doesn't support play between the MS store and steam. Minecraft [1] has two versions that say they support cross play, except you can't play between the two (and depending on how you purchase the version you're playing, this is not clear, e.g. [2]). Marvel vs capcom Infinite doesn't supoort play between the MS Store and Steam [3]. You mentioned Age of Empires and F1 2020, but googling for those two seems to suggest that both of those games suffer from the same issue; [4] [5] > As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games. I understand the issues, virtualisation was an example of an issue I faced. (and it's actually not even a virtualisation issue, it's a virtual network adapter issue!) In the last few years I've had issues with Graphics drivers that are apparently too old, drivers that are too _new_, crashes when changing audio devices, windows update blocking game installs, anticheat failing to install/update, problems with performance on a very high end PC due to third party software (chrome). They're the issues I've had, and in my group of 8 or so friends that I play with regularly, the above are common, and everyone has their "own" set of issues. [0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info [1] https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/get-minecraft https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/get-minecraft [2] https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9NBLGGH2JHXJ https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9NBLGGH2JHXJ [3] https://www.xbox.com/en-gb/games/store/marvel-vs-capcom-infinite/9pgscb1x2p7g https://www.xbox.com/en-gb/games/store/marvel-vs-capcom-infi... [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Game/comments/i3th2e/steam_x_microsoft_store/ https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Game/comments/i3th2e/steam_x_micr... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/dyk1ut/the_crossplay_between_the_microsoft_store_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/dyk1ut/the_crossp...
aloisklink 5y ago
DRM too is also a pain. The new Alder Lake CPUs apparently breaks a bunch of games, since their DRM thinks that the new Intel efficiency-cores are a second PC trying to play on the same license. Some games will only work if you upgrade to Windows 11, and all games should work if you find a BIOS option and enable it, but only some CPUs support that BIOS option. Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-dozens-of-games-on-intels-alder-lake-cpus/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-doz... And there's also all the other older horror stories of DRM, like the Denuvo DRM adding a huge performance hit on some games. Or not being able to play your offline single-player games at all, since the Denuvo DRM servers have temporarily offline due to a DNS issue. (Disclaimer, despite all the issues, I do personally prefer PC gaming over console gaming, but I'm biased that I already have a powerful PC for CUDA/C++ programming and development, so I've already spent a bunch of money and time into PCs already).

zeusk 5y ago

> you want to play a game on steam but your friend has bought it on the Microsoft store how do you play together? How do you voice chat? Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable. They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game. > What do you do when the Xbox services don't work when docker is installed? File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues?

maccard 5y ago
> Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable. That only launches the game through the correct store. If the game doesn't implement cross play, you can't play together. > They also support voice chat for groups and players not in game. But you're trying to be in game with the person, and again if the game doesn't do in-game voice chat, you have to find alternatives. On a console you join a party and the software correctly handles the cases around "do I want to put you in a voice chat channel for your game" (because it has to to pass certification). > File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues? Really helpfully closed after 30 days of inactivity. https://github.com/docker/for-win/issues/42 https://github.com/docker/for-win/issues/42. (I didn't make this bug, but I found it, and just logged onto my xbox instead).
- zeusk 5y ago
  PC games don’t need “cross play” FYI, you create a server and it is visible for anyone who purchased the game regardless of platform. I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people. Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue.
  - maccard 5y ago
    > PC games don’t need “cross play” FYI, you create a server and it is visible for anyone who purchased the game regardless of platform. That is very much game specific. As an example, Deep Rock Galactic doesn't support playing between Steam and the MS store [0] > I haven’t used in game voice for more than a decade now. discord, teamspeak, steam chat, Xbox live all work well and are used by quite a lot of people. All of those options require you to coordinate your play outside of the game and the platform. If you are playing Sea of Thieves on Steam with friends using steam voice chat, and one person joins via the MS store, you need to figure out out how to get them into the correct place. If you're all on xbox, they just join your party. > Can’t comment on that single issue, but it does look like there was barely any information provided to repro the issue. So it's not just file a bug report, it's file a bug report and provide follow up information. As a programmer, that's fine, but what if my kids want to play minecraft with their friends? [0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info
    - zeusk 5y ago
      > So it's not just file a bug report, it's file a bug report and provide follow up information. As a programmer, that's fine, but what if my kids want to play minecraft with their friends? I’d say your kids pc doesn’t need docker on it. You can’t eat the cake and have it too. If you’re technically skilled to be using containers and virtualization, least you could do is file a helpful bug report.
      - maccard 5y ago
        So now my kids need a separate PC? I thought the point of this was that my PC could do everything?
chalupa-man 5y ago
> Both services support adding non platform games through their shortcut/executable. The multiplayer services are independent and crossplay is an exception, that's what I think they were getting at. Being able to launch an executable from a different store doesn't matter if your copy uses Steamworks for multiplayer and the copy from the MS store doesn't support that. > File a bug report? Or you just came up with some hypothetical issues? It's not a hypothetical issue or a bug, it's a common problem for games that use anti-cheat software. Refusing to run when virtualization features are turned on or virtualization software is installed/present is a common tactic they use and if you file a report it'll usually get immediately closed as wontfix, because it's a tradeoff they decide to make. E.g. https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019809319-You-need-to-disable-Hyper-V-to-launch-FACEIT-AC https://support.faceit.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019809319-Yo...
- zeusk 5y ago
  > The multiplayer services are independent and crossplay is an exception, that's what I think they were getting at. Being able to launch an executable from a different store doesn't matter if your copy uses Steamworks for multiplayer and the copy from the MS store doesn't support that. But that’s not the case from the games I’ve played unless you’re getting into hypotheticals. I’ve played on Xbox live with my cousins on steam in F1 2020, age of empires, gta 4, halo. The only friction is initial invites from the specific platform but once we’ve played in the same server, it’s very easy to send in-game invites. As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games. COD4 was absolutely ruined because of it. Virtualization isn’t very widespread but I’m sure they’ll be more accommodative soon as WSL and Android ship by default on Windows.
  - maccard 5y ago
    > But that’s not the case from the games I’ve played unless you’re getting into hypotheticals. No need for hypotheticals, Deep Rock Galactic [0] doesn't support play between the MS store and steam. Minecraft [1] has two versions that say they support cross play, except you can't play between the two (and depending on how you purchase the version you're playing, this is not clear, e.g. [2]). Marvel vs capcom Infinite doesn't supoort play between the MS Store and Steam [3]. You mentioned Age of Empires and F1 2020, but googling for those two seems to suggest that both of those games suffer from the same issue; [4] [5] > As for the issues with virtualization, it’s an understandable issue with concerns around cheating in pc multiplayer games. I understand the issues, virtualisation was an example of an issue I faced. (and it's actually not even a virtualisation issue, it's a virtual network adapter issue!) In the last few years I've had issues with Graphics drivers that are apparently too old, drivers that are too _new_, crashes when changing audio devices, windows update blocking game installs, anticheat failing to install/update, problems with performance on a very high end PC due to third party software (chrome). They're the issues I've had, and in my group of 8 or so friends that I play with regularly, the above are common, and everyone has their "own" set of issues. [0] https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/crossplay-info [1] https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/get-minecraft https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/get-minecraft [2] https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9NBLGGH2JHXJ https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9NBLGGH2JHXJ [3] https://www.xbox.com/en-gb/games/store/marvel-vs-capcom-infinite/9pgscb1x2p7g https://www.xbox.com/en-gb/games/store/marvel-vs-capcom-infi... [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Game/comments/i3th2e/steam_x_microsoft_store/ https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Game/comments/i3th2e/steam_x_micr... [5] https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/dyk1ut/the_crossplay_between_the_microsoft_store_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comments/dyk1ut/the_crossp...

aloisklink 5y ago

DRM too is also a pain. The new Alder Lake CPUs apparently breaks a bunch of games, since their DRM thinks that the new Intel efficiency-cores are a second PC trying to play on the same license. Some games will only work if you upgrade to Windows 11, and all games should work if you find a BIOS option and enable it, but only some CPUs support that BIOS option. Source: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-dozens-of-games-on-intels-alder-lake-cpus/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-doz... And there's also all the other older horror stories of DRM, like the Denuvo DRM adding a huge performance hit on some games. Or not being able to play your offline single-player games at all, since the Denuvo DRM servers have temporarily offline due to a DNS issue. (Disclaimer, despite all the issues, I do personally prefer PC gaming over console gaming, but I'm biased that I already have a powerful PC for CUDA/C++ programming and development, so I've already spent a bunch of money and time into PCs already).