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You are conveniently ignoring the biggest natural disasters created by the State: famines, wars, weapons testing, unspeakable pollution and so forth... Individ

by nickpp 5y ago

You are conveniently ignoring the biggest natural disasters created by the State: famines, wars, weapons testing, unspeakable pollution and so forth... Individual greed is often limited by the fact that we are all humans in the end. Business greed is limited by competition and the fact that they have to still participate in the society. But politician's reckless behavior is often unhinged and unchecked.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Individual greed is often limited by the fact that we are all humans. No, its not, and its obviously not if “business" and “State” greed are not, because those things don't actually exist as separate things, they are just names for special cases of combinations of individual behavior.
- nickpp 5y ago
  Individuals have quite different behavior depending on the organization they belong to. See the Third Wave experiment.
nerdponx 5y ago
The flaws of the State are precisely the flaws of the greedy humans with authority over to make decisions.
- nickpp 5y ago
  I would argue that the State is an unbeatable amplifier of any human flaws its leaders may have. It's due both to the fact that there is nothing above to supervise (the State is an ultimate authority, with nothing, not even other state, above) and that pretty much every controversial decision is taken in the name and for the good of - The People - an abstract concept even more divorced from reality.
  - nerdponx 5y ago
    The problem is that, without a formal state, you just end up with an informal state that is pretty much always worse than the formal one. There are limited counterexamples in specific situations, but I don't believe that we have yet figured out a viable alternative to "the state" for organizing human societies at large scale.
    - nickpp 5y ago
      Oh, I am not arguing against the state, I am just trying to maintain a more realistic view in the conversation.
dredmorbius 5y ago
British East India company managed to accrue from 30--100m deaths all by its lonesome. The private-enterprise transatlantic slave trade is good for another 100m or so.

by nickpp 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Individual greed is often limited by the fact that we are all humans. No, its not, and its obviously not if “business" and “State” greed are not, because those things don't actually exist as separate things, they are just names for special cases of combinations of individual behavior.

nickpp 5y ago
Individuals have quite different behavior depending on the organization they belong to. See the Third Wave experiment.

nerdponx 5y ago

The flaws of the State are precisely the flaws of the greedy humans with authority over to make decisions.

nickpp 5y ago
I would argue that the State is an unbeatable amplifier of any human flaws its leaders may have. It's due both to the fact that there is nothing above to supervise (the State is an ultimate authority, with nothing, not even other state, above) and that pretty much every controversial decision is taken in the name and for the good of - The People - an abstract concept even more divorced from reality.
- nerdponx 5y ago
  The problem is that, without a formal state, you just end up with an informal state that is pretty much always worse than the formal one. There are limited counterexamples in specific situations, but I don't believe that we have yet figured out a viable alternative to "the state" for organizing human societies at large scale.
  - nickpp 5y ago
    Oh, I am not arguing against the state, I am just trying to maintain a more realistic view in the conversation.

dredmorbius 5y ago

British East India company managed to accrue from 30--100m deaths all by its lonesome. The private-enterprise transatlantic slave trade is good for another 100m or so.