6 ms·

I come back to these sorts of incidents when the topic of warning future generations away from nuclear waste comes up - e.g. "This is not a place of honor" etc.

by dTal 5y ago

I come back to these sorts of incidents when the topic of warning future generations away from nuclear waste comes up - e.g. "This is not a place of honor" etc. We can't even reliably warn people away now, when we know their language and have internationally recognized symbols for radiation.

kergonath 5y ago
This is far from unique to nuclear materials. In the news today there was an explosion of a tanker truck full of petrol, which killed ~100 people. We cannot reliably warn people away from anything, and yet some industries are safer than others. Applying this standard we’d have run away from petrol a long, long time ago. IOW, the standards you seem to use are unrealistic, and unevenly applied. This really isn’t against you: this exact line of reasoning is quite common and demonstrates that we are terrible at risk management.
- dTal 5y ago
  You seem to be arguing against something I never said, specifically a version of my comment with "and therefore we shouldn't use nuclear power" appended.
jrootabega 5y ago
The sad/inspiring truth about the human condition is that no warnings will be guaranteed to: - convey the danger factually - make people believe or care about it - discourage young/stupid/intoxicated/reckless/nihilistic people - discourage smart people who are intrigued by the danger and will be compelled to explore as much of it as they can - discourage angry people who want to bring the danger to their enemies.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
It seems curiosity always beats warnings about danger. I mean the curses and the sealing and the like of entering Tutankhamun's tomb were ignored as well. And I'm pretty sure that this container would have the nuclear symbol on it. The best thing to do I think is to make sure nobody can even accidentally find it. Drill a deep hole (miles) where you know it won't end up in the earth's mantle while the material is still dangerous, fill it with nuclear waste, seal it and forget about it. The chances of someone accidentally finding it again thousands of years down the line are minimal. Warnings only make people more curious. I don't remember any warning sign from >1000 years ago that actually keep people away.
- Kototama 5y ago
  Good luck finding a place that is geologically stable and will stay so, far away from any human population, far away from any water source, far away from valuable earth materials.
  - bsagdiyev 5y ago
    You mean like the Nevada desert? They already found one.
    - Kototama 5y ago
      A quick googling shows it has also its share of problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository#Earthquakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_r... Also not every country has a big desert :)
- wsgeorge 5y ago
  > The best thing to do I think is to make sure nobody can even accidentally find it. That sounds like just the sort of premise for an "eventually it was found" story. How about the exact opposite of this: rather than rely on obscurity/information-hiding, make it widely known that X is where the dangerous stuff is and it is an absolute no-go. That way, everyone will know that anyone within a Y-radius of X is exactly where they shouldn't be, for widely understood reasons.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    Because if the dangerous stuff has value, there will always be someone who wants to get their hands on it. So the only practical way is to make it so difficult to access that the access cost is much greater than the material's value.
- lifeformed 5y ago
  Also, why is it so important that people 1000 years from now don't find it? Maybe the first explorers will get sick and die, and that is unfortunate, but if we don't deal with our energy situation now, there wont be people in 1000 years.
rm445 5y ago
This event happened back in the eighties and there have been changes to warning symbols in response to this and similar incidents. ISO 21482 specifies an extremely scary-looking radiation symbol [1], to be placed inside such equipment (radiography/radiotherapy etc) as a last-ditch warning. The message might well get through even to a barely-literate scrap thief. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazard_symbol#Ionizing_radiation_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazard_symbol#Ionizing_radiati...
- gus_massa 5y ago
  Some idiots are using the extremely scary-looking radiation symbol (or something too similar) to sell soda, for example https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Radioactive-Mulberry-Marciano-Individual-botella/dp/B01H5VYBPG https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Radioactive-Mulberry-Marciano-In... IIUC this is just water with sugar and a fluorescent dye, not radioactive material (except the natural amount of radioactive deuterium and potassium, that is not enough to make it glow). (I think I saw something like this here in Argentina, but I don't remember the name and I can't find it in Google. But this example is very similar to what I remember from the ads.)
  - EForEndeavour 5y ago
    The familiar trefoil symbol has been used in all kinds of places, including that soda. The "extremely scary" symbol is the fourth image in the Wikipedia page OP linked to: > It depicts, on a red background, a black trefoil with waves of radiation streaming from it, along with a black skull and crossbones, and a running figure with an arrow pointing away from the scene. The radiating trefoil suggests the presence of radiation, while the red background and the skull and crossbones warn of danger. The figure running away from the scene is meant to suggest taking action to avoid the labeled material. The new symbol is not intended to be generally visible, but rather to appear on internal components of devices that house radiation sources so that if anybody attempts to disassemble such devices they will see an explicit warning not to proceed any further.
  - xwdv 5y ago
    In popular fiction other idiots make up stories where people gain superpowers from radioactive events. I have no confidence future generations won’t think the same.
adolph 5y ago
I'm not certain if the dramatic warnings are the right direction. It is truthful, but maybe "this is a really boring thing" would work better. Until people start associating that with excitement: mask-on, mask-off. https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=2622 https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=2622 https://codepoints.net/U+2622 https://codepoints.net/U+2622
themaninthedark 5y ago
Right but you will never be able to deter everyone. In fact attempting to do so will encourage some people to seek out and try to get at what you are warning them about. The source was protected by a shutter, the thieves forced it open. If it was locked in a safe, they would have cut that open. I remember a quote about a large demonstration that took place in Afghanistan or Iraq after the death of a couple local people. "Look at these people out here, all upset. Are they here demonstrating because we have are military in their country? No. Are they upset because we accidentally bombed a school or house? No. They are upset because a couple guys walked past 3 signs saying "Danger Keep Out" in 5 languages, climbed over 2 fences and got into the live fire range, found some unexploded ordinance and managed to blow themselves up with it. That is what they are upset about."

by dTal 5y ago

kergonath 5y ago

This is far from unique to nuclear materials. In the news today there was an explosion of a tanker truck full of petrol, which killed ~100 people. We cannot reliably warn people away from anything, and yet some industries are safer than others. Applying this standard we’d have run away from petrol a long, long time ago. IOW, the standards you seem to use are unrealistic, and unevenly applied. This really isn’t against you: this exact line of reasoning is quite common and demonstrates that we are terrible at risk management.

dTal 5y ago
You seem to be arguing against something I never said, specifically a version of my comment with "and therefore we shouldn't use nuclear power" appended.

jrootabega 5y ago

The sad/inspiring truth about the human condition is that no warnings will be guaranteed to: - convey the danger factually - make people believe or care about it - discourage young/stupid/intoxicated/reckless/nihilistic people - discourage smart people who are intrigued by the danger and will be compelled to explore as much of it as they can - discourage angry people who want to bring the danger to their enemies.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

It seems curiosity always beats warnings about danger. I mean the curses and the sealing and the like of entering Tutankhamun's tomb were ignored as well. And I'm pretty sure that this container would have the nuclear symbol on it. The best thing to do I think is to make sure nobody can even accidentally find it. Drill a deep hole (miles) where you know it won't end up in the earth's mantle while the material is still dangerous, fill it with nuclear waste, seal it and forget about it. The chances of someone accidentally finding it again thousands of years down the line are minimal. Warnings only make people more curious. I don't remember any warning sign from >1000 years ago that actually keep people away.

Kototama 5y ago
Good luck finding a place that is geologically stable and will stay so, far away from any human population, far away from any water source, far away from valuable earth materials.
- bsagdiyev 5y ago
  You mean like the Nevada desert? They already found one.
  - Kototama 5y ago
    A quick googling shows it has also its share of problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_repository#Earthquakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yucca_Mountain_nuclear_waste_r... Also not every country has a big desert :)
wsgeorge 5y ago
> The best thing to do I think is to make sure nobody can even accidentally find it. That sounds like just the sort of premise for an "eventually it was found" story. How about the exact opposite of this: rather than rely on obscurity/information-hiding, make it widely known that X is where the dangerous stuff is and it is an absolute no-go. That way, everyone will know that anyone within a Y-radius of X is exactly where they shouldn't be, for widely understood reasons.
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
  Because if the dangerous stuff has value, there will always be someone who wants to get their hands on it. So the only practical way is to make it so difficult to access that the access cost is much greater than the material's value.
lifeformed 5y ago
Also, why is it so important that people 1000 years from now don't find it? Maybe the first explorers will get sick and die, and that is unfortunate, but if we don't deal with our energy situation now, there wont be people in 1000 years.

rm445 5y ago

This event happened back in the eighties and there have been changes to warning symbols in response to this and similar incidents. ISO 21482 specifies an extremely scary-looking radiation symbol [1], to be placed inside such equipment (radiography/radiotherapy etc) as a last-ditch warning. The message might well get through even to a barely-literate scrap thief. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazard_symbol#Ionizing_radiation_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazard_symbol#Ionizing_radiati...

gus_massa 5y ago
Some idiots are using the extremely scary-looking radiation symbol (or something too similar) to sell soda, for example https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Radioactive-Mulberry-Marciano-Individual-botella/dp/B01H5VYBPG https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Radioactive-Mulberry-Marciano-In... IIUC this is just water with sugar and a fluorescent dye, not radioactive material (except the natural amount of radioactive deuterium and potassium, that is not enough to make it glow). (I think I saw something like this here in Argentina, but I don't remember the name and I can't find it in Google. But this example is very similar to what I remember from the ads.)
- EForEndeavour 5y ago
  The familiar trefoil symbol has been used in all kinds of places, including that soda. The "extremely scary" symbol is the fourth image in the Wikipedia page OP linked to: > It depicts, on a red background, a black trefoil with waves of radiation streaming from it, along with a black skull and crossbones, and a running figure with an arrow pointing away from the scene. The radiating trefoil suggests the presence of radiation, while the red background and the skull and crossbones warn of danger. The figure running away from the scene is meant to suggest taking action to avoid the labeled material. The new symbol is not intended to be generally visible, but rather to appear on internal components of devices that house radiation sources so that if anybody attempts to disassemble such devices they will see an explicit warning not to proceed any further.
- xwdv 5y ago
  In popular fiction other idiots make up stories where people gain superpowers from radioactive events. I have no confidence future generations won’t think the same.

adolph 5y ago

I'm not certain if the dramatic warnings are the right direction. It is truthful, but maybe "this is a really boring thing" would work better. Until people start associating that with excitement: mask-on, mask-off. https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=2622 https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=2622 https://codepoints.net/U+2622 https://codepoints.net/U+2622

themaninthedark 5y ago

Right but you will never be able to deter everyone. In fact attempting to do so will encourage some people to seek out and try to get at what you are warning them about. The source was protected by a shutter, the thieves forced it open. If it was locked in a safe, they would have cut that open. I remember a quote about a large demonstration that took place in Afghanistan or Iraq after the death of a couple local people. "Look at these people out here, all upset. Are they here demonstrating because we have are military in their country? No. Are they upset because we accidentally bombed a school or house? No. They are upset because a couple guys walked past 3 signs saying "Danger Keep Out" in 5 languages, climbed over 2 fences and got into the live fire range, found some unexploded ordinance and managed to blow themselves up with it. That is what they are upset about."