4 ms·

Sadly this isn't some sort of mass hysteria but based on practical experience. Yes, it's hard to believe. New interviewers are routinely shocked the first few t

Sadly this isn't some sort of mass hysteria but based on practical experience. Yes, it's hard to believe. New interviewers are routinely shocked the first few times they are asked to take a candidate through a coding test. That's why everyone should just ignore the advice in the article - it's wrong. If you want to hire competent programmers, you need to test them rigorously by watching them code, in front of you. Every time I have been tempted to stray from this path the results have been bad. The world is full of people who are very good at seeming affable, friendly and competent but who then fall to pieces the moment you ask them to write a program. Any program. That does anything at all.

stackbutterflow 5y ago
Then why ask candidates to solve a leetcode hard or two mediums in 45 mins? If you're afraid of people who can't code any program then ask for leetcode easy.
- native_samples 5y ago
  Sure but the article isn't about difficulty of coding challenges, or where you get them from, but about doing them at all.
  - chakkepolja 5y ago
    It's a vicious cycle. As companies ask 'Leetcode easy' questions, there came to be thousands of online blogs, youtube channels etc.. which trained even the n00bs who can't write good code otherwise. If they train very well they can solve 2sum or write binary tree level order traversal without understanding much. Of course not all interviews can use novel exclusive questions, and these have a non-negligible chance of passing. Now if you are hiring, you would think, "If these n00bs can solve Leetcode easy with practice, the good ones are solving Leetcode medium with same level of practice. So let's raise the level of questions so that we don't end up hiring these rote-learning noobs". And it continues. I don't think there's an obvious solution to this, if you don't want to lose the statistically good heuristic of problem solving skills, in order to weed out candidates.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      I haven't actually seen that cycle in practice when I've been hiring. Maybe a small number of people practice a lot on leetcode, but it seems most don't. And I think it's hard to get better at those sorts of problems and not get even a bit better at programming in general. Remember the problem here is people who can't code their way out of a paper bag, not people who just struggle with exotic algorithms questions.
TrackerFF 5y ago
The glaring problem (IMO) with throwing hard LC-style questions at interviewees, is that it's a fundamentally stressful and high-stakes situation - which is so far removed from the actual working environment. What are you actually inferring from the situation - how well the candidate can write software? How well they tackle stress and anxiety? How much spare-time they have to grind these types of questions? etc. Probably a mix of them all, but there's a lot of irrelevant noise - if you're just looking for one thing.
snickerer 5y ago
I am an interviewer for C++ job candidates in the automotive industry. I do a coding task first and a Q&A afterwards — because these are the requirements. I did many interviews. My experience is: I could skip the Q&A completely. Most candidates could answer the questions just fine after reading the Wikipedia article for 10 minutes. In the interview I can see if they already read it or not. But I don't think it matters. What matters are the coding skills. The coding task is quite simple and half of the candidates (with master degrees and 'years of industry experience') fail. But these candidates are often good talkers when they are chatting about the benefits of agile methodology and so on. I totally agree with you that a candidate should just write any program. I believe I know after 15 minutes if they are developers or not. But I also agree with the idea that we interviews must calm down the interviewee and remove the nervousness. I don't want to see if they stay cool in an exam situation because daily work is not an exam situation. I want to see if they can code when they are relaxed.
- Clubber 5y ago
  >half of the candidates (with master degrees and 'years of industry experience') fail. If half the candidates with a master's degree in CS are failing your test, that should be a pretty huge red flag to you that your test might have an issue. What question are they failing?
  - snickerer 5y ago
    They don't have problems with the questions. They are not able to write a simple C++. And they are applying for a C++ dev job.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      I would think that could get filtered out on the resume check with no relevant experience. Are they lying on the resume?
      - snickerer 5y ago
        I honestly don't know. I asked myself the same question. These guys are applying for C++ dev jobs but are completely unable to write a program. Most of these fake programmers have studied electronics (not CS) or have studied in a country where you can buy a degree.

stackbutterflow 5y ago

Then why ask candidates to solve a leetcode hard or two mediums in 45 mins? If you're afraid of people who can't code any program then ask for leetcode easy.

native_samples 5y ago
Sure but the article isn't about difficulty of coding challenges, or where you get them from, but about doing them at all.
- chakkepolja 5y ago
  It's a vicious cycle. As companies ask 'Leetcode easy' questions, there came to be thousands of online blogs, youtube channels etc.. which trained even the n00bs who can't write good code otherwise. If they train very well they can solve 2sum or write binary tree level order traversal without understanding much. Of course not all interviews can use novel exclusive questions, and these have a non-negligible chance of passing. Now if you are hiring, you would think, "If these n00bs can solve Leetcode easy with practice, the good ones are solving Leetcode medium with same level of practice. So let's raise the level of questions so that we don't end up hiring these rote-learning noobs". And it continues. I don't think there's an obvious solution to this, if you don't want to lose the statistically good heuristic of problem solving skills, in order to weed out candidates.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    I haven't actually seen that cycle in practice when I've been hiring. Maybe a small number of people practice a lot on leetcode, but it seems most don't. And I think it's hard to get better at those sorts of problems and not get even a bit better at programming in general. Remember the problem here is people who can't code their way out of a paper bag, not people who just struggle with exotic algorithms questions.

TrackerFF 5y ago

The glaring problem (IMO) with throwing hard LC-style questions at interviewees, is that it's a fundamentally stressful and high-stakes situation - which is so far removed from the actual working environment. What are you actually inferring from the situation - how well the candidate can write software? How well they tackle stress and anxiety? How much spare-time they have to grind these types of questions? etc. Probably a mix of them all, but there's a lot of irrelevant noise - if you're just looking for one thing.

snickerer 5y ago

I am an interviewer for C++ job candidates in the automotive industry. I do a coding task first and a Q&A afterwards — because these are the requirements. I did many interviews. My experience is: I could skip the Q&A completely. Most candidates could answer the questions just fine after reading the Wikipedia article for 10 minutes. In the interview I can see if they already read it or not. But I don't think it matters. What matters are the coding skills. The coding task is quite simple and half of the candidates (with master degrees and 'years of industry experience') fail. But these candidates are often good talkers when they are chatting about the benefits of agile methodology and so on. I totally agree with you that a candidate should just write any program. I believe I know after 15 minutes if they are developers or not. But I also agree with the idea that we interviews must calm down the interviewee and remove the nervousness. I don't want to see if they stay cool in an exam situation because daily work is not an exam situation. I want to see if they can code when they are relaxed.

Clubber 5y ago
>half of the candidates (with master degrees and 'years of industry experience') fail. If half the candidates with a master's degree in CS are failing your test, that should be a pretty huge red flag to you that your test might have an issue. What question are they failing?
- snickerer 5y ago
  They don't have problems with the questions. They are not able to write a simple C++. And they are applying for a C++ dev job.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    I would think that could get filtered out on the resume check with no relevant experience. Are they lying on the resume?
    - snickerer 5y ago
      I honestly don't know. I asked myself the same question. These guys are applying for C++ dev jobs but are completely unable to write a program. Most of these fake programmers have studied electronics (not CS) or have studied in a country where you can buy a degree.