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Here's hoping there will be a way to pay for no ads. But a question to HN: why have we not seen a mass-market adoption of a P2P, non-centralised messaging syst

Here's hoping there will be a way to pay for no ads. But a question to HN: why have we not seen a mass-market adoption of a P2P, non-centralised messaging system that requires no external services to work? Mesh and other sorts of networks are cumbersome and have not reached mass-market adoption, so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform?

ackbar03 5y ago
My understanding is p2p doesn't really work in the true sense? Almost everyone is behind routers these days and ipv4 is still the main addressing system. Forwarding servers are needed. Skype used to be p2p based but had to be centralized after purchased by Microsoft cause of quality issues so its also centralized, although there were some theories about the nsa getting involved and what not
AYBABTME 5y ago
There's probably someone thinking of doing this on some blockchain of sort. In a way, you'd literally pay per use... !
- medion 5y ago
  Yes, there must be a blockchain solution to this? Can anyone comment on functioning blockchain solutions (if any?)?
decrypt 5y ago
Matrix is working on a P2P system. Last update that I am aware of is the one here, but there are likely newer updates: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix/ https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix/ Personally, I would like to use Briar on my Tailscale network, but the lack of Briar desktop app and the need to build custom Briar app to support Tailscale interface is a blocker. Or, a self-hosted Signal app.
- LogonType10 5y ago
  Is it federated or P2P? I don't think I can message someone on Matrix without an account on someone's federated server.
  - chayleaf 5y ago
    just read the article at the link...
- 0xy 5y ago
  Matrix is, unfortunately, a UX catastrophe compared to Telegram. Telegram has the best messaging app by UX and it's not even close. It's fast, reliable and it just works. Try getting your mother to use Matrix. Verifying sessions of chat participants is such a disgusting user experience I wonder if they employ /any/ graphic or UX designers.
  - IceWreck 5y ago
    I agree. Telegram's UX is unparalleled. Coming to Matrix, the Element Web/Desktop app is ugly and has bad UI/UX. Its unintuitive to use. Fortunately, you have tons of choices with Matrix. Cinny on desktop has a very neat and clean UX. On Android, the Element app is good enough, but if not Fluffychat feels just like WhatsApp.
  - nsotelo 5y ago
    Matrix is an open protocol and anyone's welcome to build a front-end, inspired by Telegram, that your mother would be happy using. Perhaps you meant the Element client?
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Matrix is not a protocol, it's a product. Its openness is more like a public API to a product developed by one organization. Disclosure: I work with real open protocols.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
> so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform? The fact that nobody really wants a true p2p platform: you don't want to lose all your stuff if you lose the device. It is clear that federated services like email are superior for most users bar some real hardnuts mindfixed on privacy.
- deleted 5y ago
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- lxgr 5y ago
  > The fact that nobody really wants a true p2p platform: you don't want to lose all your stuff if you lose the device. Why not provide encrypted backups to a personal cloud storage service? Even WhatsApp does it these days.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    I don't mind you doing it and showing us how it should be done. Ah, btw, how will a true p2p platform work on iOS? What entity will send you push notifications when there are messages for your device?
    - lxgr 5y ago
      End-to-end encrypted backups? Like this, for example (I personally don't trust the HSMs/password scheme, but it's optional): https://engineering.fb.com/2021/09/10/security/whatsapp-e2ee-backups/ https://engineering.fb.com/2021/09/10/security/whatsapp-e2ee... True P2P on iOS: No idea, I merely claimed that a lack of backup options is not the reason we don't have it.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        It's not just the lack of backups. It's a world of constant pain and worry about your only device, security keys, and safe storage and transfer of your data. Forgot password? Get new account. Lost a key? Get new account. Want to open your messages in a browser from a desktop computer? Welcome to a world of pain. Your device switched off? Then nobody can send you messages, because in 'true p2p' there are no relay servers who would store the data, waiting for you to connect. In practice, nobody wants any of that. The vast majority of users are perfectly happy (and for the right reasons) with federated and centralised services like email or WhatsApp/etc.
fabianhjr 5y ago
There are many P2P chat/instant message platforms but they are very niche. For example: https://cabal.chat/ https://cabal.chat/ There isn't a way to monetize an open P2P protocol, or even a "captive user base" to sell to VCs for a cash exit so not a lot of development has been done on that area. (And I would be highly skeptical of any "blockchain" P2P Chat proposal)
MzHN 5y ago
Session https://getsession.org/ https://getsession.org/
- lpcvoid 5y ago
  Electron desktop client instantly disqualifies it as a Telegram Desktop competitor. Telegram Desktop is probably the best example of how desktop software should be built.
throwaway2077 5y ago
>so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform? technically nothing. even email kinda fits the bill if you squint hard enough. realistically though, the vast majority of population will always gravitate towards streamlined workflow provided by centralized services, and the rest of us are dragged along.
golergka 5y ago
Is there a P2P messaging service that allows you to save all of your messaging history (including media files) in the cloud, sync it through different devices and search it instantly, even when it's not downloaded on your device?
seanieb 5y ago
A talk by Moxie at CCC deals with this exact question. > “ Considerations for distributed and decentralized technologies from the perspective of a product that many would like to see decentralize. > Amongst an environment of enthusiasm for blockchain-based technologies, efforts to decentralize the internet, and tremendous investment in distributed systems, there has been relatively little product movement in this area from the mobile and consumer internet spaces. > This is an exploration of challenges for distributed technologies, as well as some considerations for what they do and don't provide, from the perspective of someone working on user-focused mobile communication. This also includes a look at how Signal addresses some of the same problems that decentralized and distributed technologies hope to solve.” https://youtu.be/DdM-XTRyC9c https://youtu.be/DdM-XTRyC9c
swiley 5y ago
Apple doesn't like them. We already have: XMPP (with E2EE) Mumble IRC Email Mastodon etc. Apple makes it very hard to publish smartphone apps for these.
KoftaBob 5y ago
I've been wondering the same thing for a while. The closest iteration of this I've come across so far is Session (https://getsession.org https://getsession.org) It routes messages through an Onion/TOR-like network of nodes that others volunteer to run. In return for running those nodes, they generate the Oxen cryptocurrency, similar to how mining Bitcoin works. This way, it's not fully centralized like WhatsApp/Telegram/etc, but also solves the issues of devices directly communicating, like what happens when the app isn't running on the phone.

ackbar03 5y ago

My understanding is p2p doesn't really work in the true sense? Almost everyone is behind routers these days and ipv4 is still the main addressing system. Forwarding servers are needed. Skype used to be p2p based but had to be centralized after purchased by Microsoft cause of quality issues so its also centralized, although there were some theories about the nsa getting involved and what not

AYBABTME 5y ago

There's probably someone thinking of doing this on some blockchain of sort. In a way, you'd literally pay per use... !

medion 5y ago
Yes, there must be a blockchain solution to this? Can anyone comment on functioning blockchain solutions (if any?)?

decrypt 5y ago

Matrix is working on a P2P system. Last update that I am aware of is the one here, but there are likely newer updates: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix/ https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix/ Personally, I would like to use Briar on my Tailscale network, but the lack of Briar desktop app and the need to build custom Briar app to support Tailscale interface is a blocker. Or, a self-hosted Signal app.

LogonType10 5y ago
Is it federated or P2P? I don't think I can message someone on Matrix without an account on someone's federated server.
- chayleaf 5y ago
  just read the article at the link...
0xy 5y ago
Matrix is, unfortunately, a UX catastrophe compared to Telegram. Telegram has the best messaging app by UX and it's not even close. It's fast, reliable and it just works. Try getting your mother to use Matrix. Verifying sessions of chat participants is such a disgusting user experience I wonder if they employ /any/ graphic or UX designers.
- IceWreck 5y ago
  I agree. Telegram's UX is unparalleled. Coming to Matrix, the Element Web/Desktop app is ugly and has bad UI/UX. Its unintuitive to use. Fortunately, you have tons of choices with Matrix. Cinny on desktop has a very neat and clean UX. On Android, the Element app is good enough, but if not Fluffychat feels just like WhatsApp.
- nsotelo 5y ago
  Matrix is an open protocol and anyone's welcome to build a front-end, inspired by Telegram, that your mother would be happy using. Perhaps you meant the Element client?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Matrix is not a protocol, it's a product. Its openness is more like a public API to a product developed by one organization. Disclosure: I work with real open protocols.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

> so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform? The fact that nobody really wants a true p2p platform: you don't want to lose all your stuff if you lose the device. It is clear that federated services like email are superior for most users bar some real hardnuts mindfixed on privacy.

deleted 5y ago
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deleted 5y ago
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lxgr 5y ago
> The fact that nobody really wants a true p2p platform: you don't want to lose all your stuff if you lose the device. Why not provide encrypted backups to a personal cloud storage service? Even WhatsApp does it these days.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  I don't mind you doing it and showing us how it should be done. Ah, btw, how will a true p2p platform work on iOS? What entity will send you push notifications when there are messages for your device?
  - lxgr 5y ago
    End-to-end encrypted backups? Like this, for example (I personally don't trust the HSMs/password scheme, but it's optional): https://engineering.fb.com/2021/09/10/security/whatsapp-e2ee-backups/ https://engineering.fb.com/2021/09/10/security/whatsapp-e2ee... True P2P on iOS: No idea, I merely claimed that a lack of backup options is not the reason we don't have it.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      It's not just the lack of backups. It's a world of constant pain and worry about your only device, security keys, and safe storage and transfer of your data. Forgot password? Get new account. Lost a key? Get new account. Want to open your messages in a browser from a desktop computer? Welcome to a world of pain. Your device switched off? Then nobody can send you messages, because in 'true p2p' there are no relay servers who would store the data, waiting for you to connect. In practice, nobody wants any of that. The vast majority of users are perfectly happy (and for the right reasons) with federated and centralised services like email or WhatsApp/etc.

fabianhjr 5y ago

There are many P2P chat/instant message platforms but they are very niche. For example: https://cabal.chat/ https://cabal.chat/ There isn't a way to monetize an open P2P protocol, or even a "captive user base" to sell to VCs for a cash exit so not a lot of development has been done on that area. (And I would be highly skeptical of any "blockchain" P2P Chat proposal)

MzHN 5y ago

Session https://getsession.org/ https://getsession.org/

lpcvoid 5y ago
Electron desktop client instantly disqualifies it as a Telegram Desktop competitor. Telegram Desktop is probably the best example of how desktop software should be built.

throwaway2077 5y ago

>so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform? technically nothing. even email kinda fits the bill if you squint hard enough. realistically though, the vast majority of population will always gravitate towards streamlined workflow provided by centralized services, and the rest of us are dragged along.

golergka 5y ago

Is there a P2P messaging service that allows you to save all of your messaging history (including media files) in the cloud, sync it through different devices and search it instantly, even when it's not downloaded on your device?

seanieb 5y ago

A talk by Moxie at CCC deals with this exact question. > “ Considerations for distributed and decentralized technologies from the perspective of a product that many would like to see decentralize. > Amongst an environment of enthusiasm for blockchain-based technologies, efforts to decentralize the internet, and tremendous investment in distributed systems, there has been relatively little product movement in this area from the mobile and consumer internet spaces. > This is an exploration of challenges for distributed technologies, as well as some considerations for what they do and don't provide, from the perspective of someone working on user-focused mobile communication. This also includes a look at how Signal addresses some of the same problems that decentralized and distributed technologies hope to solve.” https://youtu.be/DdM-XTRyC9c https://youtu.be/DdM-XTRyC9c

swiley 5y ago

Apple doesn't like them. We already have: XMPP (with E2EE) Mumble IRC Email Mastodon etc. Apple makes it very hard to publish smartphone apps for these.

KoftaBob 5y ago

I've been wondering the same thing for a while. The closest iteration of this I've come across so far is Session (https://getsession.org https://getsession.org) It routes messages through an Onion/TOR-like network of nodes that others volunteer to run. In return for running those nodes, they generate the Oxen cryptocurrency, similar to how mining Bitcoin works. This way, it's not fully centralized like WhatsApp/Telegram/etc, but also solves the issues of devices directly communicating, like what happens when the app isn't running on the phone.