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> Your users will do what you make easy This is why game designers must remove all repetitive, boring, yet effective strategies in order to make good games. I

> Your users will do what you make easy This is why game designers must remove all repetitive, boring, yet effective strategies in order to make good games. If there's something the player can do to gain advantage, no matter how boring or tedious it is, they will do it and they will ruin their fun and they will assign all blame for it on you, the designer.

BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago
I understand what you are getting at and I think that applies to the majority of games. That being said, how do you approach games like RuneScape where the grind is part of the appeal?
- Jare 5y ago
  It's not about removing anything repetitive - it's about trying to find a balance that works best for the player and for you as the developer/producer. MMOs and games in general have you experience content in roughly 5 different ways: authored (expensive), procedural (complex and generic), emergent (problems explode with size), repeated (the grind), or user generated. Each game, and each system and region inside a game, is a balance between those.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  The grind is absolutely not the appeal, but the other cool stuff outweighs it.
- Jensson 5y ago
  In RuneScape social is the appeal, and you got things to click and numbers go up while you chat with people.
  - indianboy42 5y ago
    Exactly, I played RuneScape a bunch in highschool and would spend some weekends just grinding. Sounds boring af, but the fun thing was talking with my friends, or with complete strangers. MMO may be able to use social interaction to offset the problems of grinding, although it's probably not for free. Some incentivization for interacting with others, and safety features to feel comfortable to reach out, are needed.
bryans 5y ago
I really don't see the connection you're trying to make. There are huge swaths of the gaming industry which are based entirely on repetitive and boring tasks, including some of the most popular games in history, such as Bejeweled and all of its Candy Crush offspring. Or idle, incremental and clicker games. Or slot machines, for that matter. All of those gamers are perfectly happy to spend money on boring repetition -- sometimes for years on end.
- pjc50 5y ago
  Those make it clear what the game is upfront. The upset happens when you believe a game is one thing and it turns into a grind for incidental reasons.
  - bryans 5y ago
    I really wish y'all would stop with the absolutes and sweeping generalizations. It's truly exhausting. None of the games or categories I listed are any more clear or deceptive about their mechanisms than any other game. I listed incrementals, but those often don't turn out the way you expect, because most of the mechanisms are hidden until you unlock them, so no, they are not "clear" about what they are upfront. I did not list FPSs, which definitely come with a mechanics expectation, and yet there are a mountain of different FPS mechanisms across many game styles. If you make an assumption about a game, and that assumption turns out to be false -- or you just plain didn't enjoy the game -- it's a hell of a leap to automatically assume that the developer intentionally deceived you with malicious intent. Sometimes you just don't like a game, and that's okay.
    - pjc50 5y ago
      You wrote > There are huge swaths of the gaming industry which are based ENTIRELY on repetitive and boring tasks, including some of the most popular games in history, such as Bejeweled and all of its Candy Crush offspring. Or idle, incremental and clicker games. Or slot machines, for that matter. ALL of those gamers are perfectly happy to spend money on boring repetition -- sometimes for years on end. I have highlighted the absolutes and sweeping generalizations for clarification, since you seem to be having a go at people for doing this. It is quite hard to not write in generalisations, because otherwise you have to caveat EVERYTHING. I also did not write anything about intent, I said that the upset was finding a game becoming, for whatever reason, not what you thought it was or previously enjoyed. > I listed incrementals, but those often don't turn out the way you expect, because most of the mechanisms are hidden until you unlock them It is usually clear that a game is an incremental. I would be rather surprised if a new version of DOOM was released as a $60 boxed game that turned out to be an incremental. (To a great extent genre is just this, the categorising of things by similar elements in the hope that people who like one will like another)
agumonkey 5y ago
Depends on the kind though, Nintendo is said to willingly spread repetition to ease pedagogy so you can play while ignorant. They rotate around patterns gradually removing repetition.
- hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  Yes and repetition induces expectation, which, when broken, creates surprise and presumably enjoyment. Kind of like in music.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    I believe the surprise comes from the reuse. Your brain feels at home yet gets a little stimulus of new.
ai_ia 5y ago
I remember playing Pokemon GB games on an emulator and would actively battle with lower level pokemons in the wild or other NPC trainers to level up my own pokemons. Though, I enjoyed it, for some reason.
gouterz8 5y ago
I went through this when playing Spiderman on PS4. It became repetitive but couldn't stop myself from doing the side quests.

BuyMyBitcoins 5y ago

I understand what you are getting at and I think that applies to the majority of games. That being said, how do you approach games like RuneScape where the grind is part of the appeal?

Jare 5y ago
It's not about removing anything repetitive - it's about trying to find a balance that works best for the player and for you as the developer/producer. MMOs and games in general have you experience content in roughly 5 different ways: authored (expensive), procedural (complex and generic), emergent (problems explode with size), repeated (the grind), or user generated. Each game, and each system and region inside a game, is a balance between those.
moffkalast 5y ago
The grind is absolutely not the appeal, but the other cool stuff outweighs it.
Jensson 5y ago
In RuneScape social is the appeal, and you got things to click and numbers go up while you chat with people.
- indianboy42 5y ago
  Exactly, I played RuneScape a bunch in highschool and would spend some weekends just grinding. Sounds boring af, but the fun thing was talking with my friends, or with complete strangers. MMO may be able to use social interaction to offset the problems of grinding, although it's probably not for free. Some incentivization for interacting with others, and safety features to feel comfortable to reach out, are needed.

bryans 5y ago

I really don't see the connection you're trying to make. There are huge swaths of the gaming industry which are based entirely on repetitive and boring tasks, including some of the most popular games in history, such as Bejeweled and all of its Candy Crush offspring. Or idle, incremental and clicker games. Or slot machines, for that matter. All of those gamers are perfectly happy to spend money on boring repetition -- sometimes for years on end.

pjc50 5y ago
Those make it clear what the game is upfront. The upset happens when you believe a game is one thing and it turns into a grind for incidental reasons.
- bryans 5y ago
  I really wish y'all would stop with the absolutes and sweeping generalizations. It's truly exhausting. None of the games or categories I listed are any more clear or deceptive about their mechanisms than any other game. I listed incrementals, but those often don't turn out the way you expect, because most of the mechanisms are hidden until you unlock them, so no, they are not "clear" about what they are upfront. I did not list FPSs, which definitely come with a mechanics expectation, and yet there are a mountain of different FPS mechanisms across many game styles. If you make an assumption about a game, and that assumption turns out to be false -- or you just plain didn't enjoy the game -- it's a hell of a leap to automatically assume that the developer intentionally deceived you with malicious intent. Sometimes you just don't like a game, and that's okay.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    You wrote > There are huge swaths of the gaming industry which are based ENTIRELY on repetitive and boring tasks, including some of the most popular games in history, such as Bejeweled and all of its Candy Crush offspring. Or idle, incremental and clicker games. Or slot machines, for that matter. ALL of those gamers are perfectly happy to spend money on boring repetition -- sometimes for years on end. I have highlighted the absolutes and sweeping generalizations for clarification, since you seem to be having a go at people for doing this. It is quite hard to not write in generalisations, because otherwise you have to caveat EVERYTHING. I also did not write anything about intent, I said that the upset was finding a game becoming, for whatever reason, not what you thought it was or previously enjoyed. > I listed incrementals, but those often don't turn out the way you expect, because most of the mechanisms are hidden until you unlock them It is usually clear that a game is an incremental. I would be rather surprised if a new version of DOOM was released as a $60 boxed game that turned out to be an incremental. (To a great extent genre is just this, the categorising of things by similar elements in the hope that people who like one will like another)

agumonkey 5y ago

Depends on the kind though, Nintendo is said to willingly spread repetition to ease pedagogy so you can play while ignorant. They rotate around patterns gradually removing repetition.

hypertele-Xii 5y ago
Yes and repetition induces expectation, which, when broken, creates surprise and presumably enjoyment. Kind of like in music.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I believe the surprise comes from the reuse. Your brain feels at home yet gets a little stimulus of new.

ai_ia 5y ago

I remember playing Pokemon GB games on an emulator and would actively battle with lower level pokemons in the wild or other NPC trainers to level up my own pokemons. Though, I enjoyed it, for some reason.

gouterz8 5y ago

I went through this when playing Spiderman on PS4. It became repetitive but couldn't stop myself from doing the side quests.