5 ms·

>> "honestly I'm really happy where I am, but every man has his price, what can you offer?" does wonders. I would be very surprised if you say literally this a

>> "honestly I'm really happy where I am, but every man has his price, what can you offer?" does wonders. I would be very surprised if you say literally this and get results. No self-respecting company or manager is going to invest in talking to you if you describe yourself so overtly mercenary. Obviously, when you're happy where you are, money is part of the equation to get you to move, but making it seem like the only motivator is super gauche and culture-centric companies (which are the good ones) would hang up on this answer. So curious - are you actually literally saying this and people aren't hanging up on you?

akomtu 5y ago
Companies don't have self-respect and competent managers are necesserarily hypocritical, but your point is right for another reason: someone who speaks truth to power like that won't fit a typical team of hypocrites. A hiring manager would think: "if this dude disrespects my authority now, why is he going to respect it later? better to hire that less stellar candidate who at least will be manageable."
jen20 5y ago
> culture-centric companies (which are the good ones) This depends on what you are looking for.
- xyzelement 5y ago
  > This depends on what you are looking for. I am open to learning other sides here because this is so foreign to me. What are the cases where you don't want to work in a place where people care about the mission and culture and want coworkers who do as well? What are the cases where you're happy working for the company whose attitude is "we don't care who you are and what you value, as long as you have the basic skills and are willing to take what we pay, welcome aboard?" Do such companies become great places to work and if so how? I am asking genuinely curious because I've always looked for high culture high mission companies because that's what I am like.
  - nemetroid 5y ago
    > "we don't care who you are and what you value, as long as you have the basic skills and are willing to take what we pay, welcome aboard?" Why just "basic" skills? How does that fit in with the rest?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - wpietri 5y ago
    I'm a very mission-oriented person, so I understand where you're coming from. But there are a lot of places where people don't care very much, and people who work in those circumstances long enough tend to pick up those values. The most obviously mercenary industry is finance. I did that for a few years and then got the fuck out. But I've met plenty of mercenary people in tech, especially in startups and BigCos. For plenty of people programming is a job like any other; they're going to come in, do whatever the boss wants (however little sense it makes), and go home. I would die from that, but a lot of people either find their meaning elsewhere or just don't care much about meaning.
  - jen20 5y ago
    There are plenty of people in this boat 1 the so-called “dark matter” developers. There are lots of people who find their fulfillment via means other than work, and work is a necessary evil that pays the rent. I personally couldn’t stand that kind of place, but understand why others are fine with it.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
      > “dark matter” developers I like that. I'm probably one. A few years ago, my company finally wound up my team, and brought all their development over to The Old Country (I am in the US, and it was a Japanese company). The jury's out, on whether or not it was a good idea for that company. For me, I had plenty of investments and savings, that I didn't need to work, if I didn't want to, but I wanted to work. I love working on teams; the more eclectic, the better. I have a fairly unusual confluence of skills, experience and character that I know is quite valuable, and quite rare. I was a manager for a long time ("discussion" interviews were the way I worked). That means that I’m quite aware of the value of my skills. I’m not God’s gift to SWE, but I’m no slouch. I also have a very big portfolio, to prove what I say. I'm not blowing up my CV with padding and BS. In fact, I had to remove a great deal of stuff, in order to keep it to a couple of pages. I know that not everyone has a portfolio like mine, but it's what I have. It's dozens and dozens of completed, ship-ready, ultra-high-quality projects that can easily be examined, installed, built, run, and, in some cases, submitted to the App Store. There’s at least a decade of commit history, across these codebases, and a ton of documentation. Anyone can look at it. I make it very easy to find. Couple that with many, many blog postings, training modules, essays, tutorials, etc., and you have a pretty damn good idea of who I am, what drives me, and what I can bring to the table. You really can't get more solid than that. In my experience, this was completely ignored, when I was searching for work. I understand the excuses that many managers use for this, and, in some cases, I can't argue against them, but, in other cases, they really missed the boat. I could have actually made a significant difference to their bottom line; especially a couple of smaller companies. In the end, I just gave up looking, and went to work on my own. I found some folks doing nonprofit work, that looked like they could use some help, and I've been working with them, for free. I'm also making that "significant difference" that I mentioned earlier. I have absolutely no intention of looking for work in the corporate rat race anymore. I'm quite disappointed in the zeitgeist of the modern software development industry, and don't want to darken my spirit. It took me a few years to realize just how bad it was for me, and how much better it is, now. It would be nice to have the extra money that a continued paid career would give, but I've become used to feeling good about my work, and I work a lot. It's like the scales fell from my eyes.
User23 5y ago
This is total loserthink. Saying literally that will assuredly get results. Mature managers and owners are well aware that hiring is a commercial act and that commercial acts are about money. Signaling that you’re willing to walk from the negotiation is key to getting good compensation. Strategically, you wait until they’ve already invested thousands of dollars in labor costs interviewing you first.
- laurent92 5y ago
  Strategically then, wait until you are 4 months in the job, when they’ve paid the commission to the recruiter (finding and contacting interesting people is a job, paid ~20% of the gross salary), and THEN you raise the price. Expect to receive a flying chair. If you get out of it alive, you’ll get a better salary.
  - User23 5y ago
    I assume you’re being sarcastic, but if you change 4 months to a year and play hardball in your first review it’s not a terrible plan. This is assuming you spent that first year creating big value.
- dan-robertson 5y ago
  Right, if you have a good BATNA then you will actually be negotiating and not just bluffing. I think lots of people get hung up on thinking of business interactions as personal ones, just because they have been interacting with people. Small businesses may act in more personal ways but most larger companies will generally be pretty faceless and make decisions they think are good without bearing grudges because people treated them like a faceless corporation trying to make good business decisions.
mathgladiator 5y ago
I've said a variation of it, and it works exceptionally well if the other side is also mercenary. A mercenary working for another mercenary can be a very educational experience, and I have found that it is far easier to work with other mercenaries because they can be focused and aligned quicker than people that need to be inspired. Honestly, if I was a hiring manager, then I'd try to only hire mercenaries keeping things professional.
Philip-J-Fry 5y ago
Why wouldn't that get results? If you're happy where you are then there needs to be a good reason to move. It's the interviewer/company's job to convince you to move, it's their effort being wasted. If you're comfortable in your existing job then you are ALWAYS in the commanding seat during negotiations. If they want you then they will need to make an offer good enough. Otherwise you walk straight out and nothing changes. Also, this isn't something you'd say on the phone. It's what you'd say during the interview, when they can't just hang up on you. You've done the interview, they ask "So, what sort of compensation are you looking for?", then you hit them with that. If you show a weakness (a job you are actively trying to leave) then you will get lowballed. Showing that you have nothing to lose is a wall they have to scale and puts you in the best position possible for negotiations.
civilized 5y ago
If you're afraid of telling a company you'd move for more money, you've subordinated yourself and abdicated your own economic agency before negotiations even begin. I tell every recruiter my price right off the bat and get plenty of interview offers. Unconditional devotion is reserved for my wife, who actually deserves it. I wouldn't respect a company that expects me to stick around at below-market pay for "the culture". Tech companies already appropriate your labor on the cheap and keep the (enormous) difference. No culture makes up for that. They should at least pay market rate. I'm not a dupe.
xenihn 5y ago
>I would be very surprised if you say literally this and get results. No self-respecting company or manager is going to invest in talking to you if you describe yourself so overtly mercenary. that depends entirely on how badly they need you
justinlloyd 5y ago
On LinkedIn, when approached, and I am approached very often: My very first question is: "What is the compensation range for this position?" And if it is below what I am seeking, I say "Thank you for making me aware of this opportunity. At the compensation range you stated it is a hard pass from me. If you can come back with a realistic number I might be open to a discussion. Good luck in your continuing candidate search." Or if they ask me what I want, I say: "I'm currently making $230k base. Can you come up with a number higher than that which would convince me to move from a job I am happy with?" It quickly removes the time wasters and the starry eyed dreamers and the cheap skates, and the people who are serious, then we have a conversation and see where it leads. And I have plenty of conversations every month. Yes, it's effective. It's a business negotiation, and the person on the other side of the conversation either understands that inherently or is trying to convince me that my labour is worth less.
CalRobert 5y ago
I said this to recruiter at $currentjob and they pay me ~50% more than the last place.

akomtu 5y ago

Companies don't have self-respect and competent managers are necesserarily hypocritical, but your point is right for another reason: someone who speaks truth to power like that won't fit a typical team of hypocrites. A hiring manager would think: "if this dude disrespects my authority now, why is he going to respect it later? better to hire that less stellar candidate who at least will be manageable."

jen20 5y ago

> culture-centric companies (which are the good ones) This depends on what you are looking for.

xyzelement 5y ago
> This depends on what you are looking for. I am open to learning other sides here because this is so foreign to me. What are the cases where you don't want to work in a place where people care about the mission and culture and want coworkers who do as well? What are the cases where you're happy working for the company whose attitude is "we don't care who you are and what you value, as long as you have the basic skills and are willing to take what we pay, welcome aboard?" Do such companies become great places to work and if so how? I am asking genuinely curious because I've always looked for high culture high mission companies because that's what I am like.
- nemetroid 5y ago
  > "we don't care who you are and what you value, as long as you have the basic skills and are willing to take what we pay, welcome aboard?" Why just "basic" skills? How does that fit in with the rest?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- wpietri 5y ago
  I'm a very mission-oriented person, so I understand where you're coming from. But there are a lot of places where people don't care very much, and people who work in those circumstances long enough tend to pick up those values. The most obviously mercenary industry is finance. I did that for a few years and then got the fuck out. But I've met plenty of mercenary people in tech, especially in startups and BigCos. For plenty of people programming is a job like any other; they're going to come in, do whatever the boss wants (however little sense it makes), and go home. I would die from that, but a lot of people either find their meaning elsewhere or just don't care much about meaning.
- jen20 5y ago
  There are plenty of people in this boat 1 the so-called “dark matter” developers. There are lots of people who find their fulfillment via means other than work, and work is a necessary evil that pays the rent. I personally couldn’t stand that kind of place, but understand why others are fine with it.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    > “dark matter” developers I like that. I'm probably one. A few years ago, my company finally wound up my team, and brought all their development over to The Old Country (I am in the US, and it was a Japanese company). The jury's out, on whether or not it was a good idea for that company. For me, I had plenty of investments and savings, that I didn't need to work, if I didn't want to, but I wanted to work. I love working on teams; the more eclectic, the better. I have a fairly unusual confluence of skills, experience and character that I know is quite valuable, and quite rare. I was a manager for a long time ("discussion" interviews were the way I worked). That means that I’m quite aware of the value of my skills. I’m not God’s gift to SWE, but I’m no slouch. I also have a very big portfolio, to prove what I say. I'm not blowing up my CV with padding and BS. In fact, I had to remove a great deal of stuff, in order to keep it to a couple of pages. I know that not everyone has a portfolio like mine, but it's what I have. It's dozens and dozens of completed, ship-ready, ultra-high-quality projects that can easily be examined, installed, built, run, and, in some cases, submitted to the App Store. There’s at least a decade of commit history, across these codebases, and a ton of documentation. Anyone can look at it. I make it very easy to find. Couple that with many, many blog postings, training modules, essays, tutorials, etc., and you have a pretty damn good idea of who I am, what drives me, and what I can bring to the table. You really can't get more solid than that. In my experience, this was completely ignored, when I was searching for work. I understand the excuses that many managers use for this, and, in some cases, I can't argue against them, but, in other cases, they really missed the boat. I could have actually made a significant difference to their bottom line; especially a couple of smaller companies. In the end, I just gave up looking, and went to work on my own. I found some folks doing nonprofit work, that looked like they could use some help, and I've been working with them, for free. I'm also making that "significant difference" that I mentioned earlier. I have absolutely no intention of looking for work in the corporate rat race anymore. I'm quite disappointed in the zeitgeist of the modern software development industry, and don't want to darken my spirit. It took me a few years to realize just how bad it was for me, and how much better it is, now. It would be nice to have the extra money that a continued paid career would give, but I've become used to feeling good about my work, and I work a lot. It's like the scales fell from my eyes.

User23 5y ago

This is total loserthink. Saying literally that will assuredly get results. Mature managers and owners are well aware that hiring is a commercial act and that commercial acts are about money. Signaling that you’re willing to walk from the negotiation is key to getting good compensation. Strategically, you wait until they’ve already invested thousands of dollars in labor costs interviewing you first.

laurent92 5y ago
Strategically then, wait until you are 4 months in the job, when they’ve paid the commission to the recruiter (finding and contacting interesting people is a job, paid ~20% of the gross salary), and THEN you raise the price. Expect to receive a flying chair. If you get out of it alive, you’ll get a better salary.
- User23 5y ago
  I assume you’re being sarcastic, but if you change 4 months to a year and play hardball in your first review it’s not a terrible plan. This is assuming you spent that first year creating big value.
dan-robertson 5y ago
Right, if you have a good BATNA then you will actually be negotiating and not just bluffing. I think lots of people get hung up on thinking of business interactions as personal ones, just because they have been interacting with people. Small businesses may act in more personal ways but most larger companies will generally be pretty faceless and make decisions they think are good without bearing grudges because people treated them like a faceless corporation trying to make good business decisions.

mathgladiator 5y ago

I've said a variation of it, and it works exceptionally well if the other side is also mercenary. A mercenary working for another mercenary can be a very educational experience, and I have found that it is far easier to work with other mercenaries because they can be focused and aligned quicker than people that need to be inspired. Honestly, if I was a hiring manager, then I'd try to only hire mercenaries keeping things professional.

Philip-J-Fry 5y ago

Why wouldn't that get results? If you're happy where you are then there needs to be a good reason to move. It's the interviewer/company's job to convince you to move, it's their effort being wasted. If you're comfortable in your existing job then you are ALWAYS in the commanding seat during negotiations. If they want you then they will need to make an offer good enough. Otherwise you walk straight out and nothing changes. Also, this isn't something you'd say on the phone. It's what you'd say during the interview, when they can't just hang up on you. You've done the interview, they ask "So, what sort of compensation are you looking for?", then you hit them with that. If you show a weakness (a job you are actively trying to leave) then you will get lowballed. Showing that you have nothing to lose is a wall they have to scale and puts you in the best position possible for negotiations.

civilized 5y ago

If you're afraid of telling a company you'd move for more money, you've subordinated yourself and abdicated your own economic agency before negotiations even begin. I tell every recruiter my price right off the bat and get plenty of interview offers. Unconditional devotion is reserved for my wife, who actually deserves it. I wouldn't respect a company that expects me to stick around at below-market pay for "the culture". Tech companies already appropriate your labor on the cheap and keep the (enormous) difference. No culture makes up for that. They should at least pay market rate. I'm not a dupe.

xenihn 5y ago

>I would be very surprised if you say literally this and get results. No self-respecting company or manager is going to invest in talking to you if you describe yourself so overtly mercenary. that depends entirely on how badly they need you

justinlloyd 5y ago

On LinkedIn, when approached, and I am approached very often: My very first question is: "What is the compensation range for this position?" And if it is below what I am seeking, I say "Thank you for making me aware of this opportunity. At the compensation range you stated it is a hard pass from me. If you can come back with a realistic number I might be open to a discussion. Good luck in your continuing candidate search." Or if they ask me what I want, I say: "I'm currently making $230k base. Can you come up with a number higher than that which would convince me to move from a job I am happy with?" It quickly removes the time wasters and the starry eyed dreamers and the cheap skates, and the people who are serious, then we have a conversation and see where it leads. And I have plenty of conversations every month. Yes, it's effective. It's a business negotiation, and the person on the other side of the conversation either understands that inherently or is trying to convince me that my labour is worth less.

CalRobert 5y ago

I said this to recruiter at $currentjob and they pay me ~50% more than the last place.