4 ms·

The difference between tags and hierarchies is this: if you don't know what you're looking for, hierarchy can guide you.

by dsr_ 5y ago

arduinomancer 5y ago
Couldn’t you just look at a list of tags?
- dsr_ 5y ago
  Sure. How many tags are in your system? The number of tags should be more or less similar to the number of non-leaf nodes in a hierarchy, or else you aren't capturing the same information. Any tag that applies to more than half of the files is probably useless. On my blog, the tags "blog" and "technology" are definitely useless. That's fewer than 250 entries and already it has cruft. Were people consistent when they added tags? Does your system suggest tags automatically? Is this actually a full-text search minus stop words? Is there a librarian who cleans up after you and merges tags that have the same meanings? Would the full-text search be more useful than tags?
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  I have this problem in Pocket. I use ... a lot of tags. (I couldn't tell you without downloading my entire archive and doing some magick to count them, as Pocket won't give me a count itself.) Pocket lags by well over a minute in even starting to populate my tags list after I enter some text into the field. (Chrome/Android, using an external keyboard.) It similarly takes several minutes to scroll through the tag list using either the Web client or the Android app. You could argue that this is a piss-poor UI/UX issue, and I'd agree. It's piss-poor UI/UX issue that Pocket have failed to address since I first reported it over five years ago. https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/5x2sfx/pocket_it_gets_worse_the_more_you_use_it/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/5x2sfx/pocket_... If you'd like another list that has rapid-scannability issues, there's the Library of Congress Subject Headings: These are publicly available. In 27 PDF files, corresponding to printed books ranging from 12 to 842 pages in length: https://www.loc.gov/aba/publications/FreeLCSH/freelcsh.html https://www.loc.gov/aba/publications/FreeLCSH/freelcsh.html
Rygian 5y ago
That's just bad UX of the tag browsers.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  If that's the case, how specifically would you improve that UX?
  - wander_homer 5y ago
    Have the option to view the tagged items in a tree, which is dynamically created from the tags. For example my audio player does just that, e.g. `%artist%/(%year%) %album%/%tracknumber%.%title%`
    - theon144 5y ago
      Also known as "facets". Sometimes you might want to browse "year/album/artist" too (think Various Artists / compilation albums), instead of the more common "artist/year/album". Or even "artist/year/album" for the more prolific artists out there. Progressively "drilling down" is super low-hanging fruit with regards to tag-based organization, it's seriously neglected.
      - dredmorbius 5y ago
        Thanks, that's ... closer to what I have in mind. I also agree that the lack of drill-down on tag-based organisation ... kills about 99.9996% of the value. It's sufficiently valuable that you'd expect this to be part of basic implementation libraries by now.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      How are relationships between tags determined or specified? A tagging system is flat by default. Though that makes rendering the tree somewhat easier...
      - wander_homer 5y ago
dredmorbius 5y ago
Another key difference is that a hierarchical (or positional) attribute is acquired inherently by a document's position within that hierarchy or location. In both cases, the hierarchy is inherently positional, affords locality, and guides both the reader and the document by asserting that locality inherently. If you're in a place, then that place gives nearness or farness from objects. If you're an object, you're in some location inherently. Tags, in this sense, are placeless, and don't provide attributes of or guidance to nearness. At least not without some additional mechanism.

The difference between tags and hierarchies is this: if you don't know what you're looking for, hierarchy can guide you.

by dsr_ 5y ago

The difference between tags and hierarchies is this: if you don't know what you're looking for, hierarchy can guide you.

arduinomancer 5y ago

Couldn’t you just look at a list of tags?

dsr_ 5y ago
Sure. How many tags are in your system? The number of tags should be more or less similar to the number of non-leaf nodes in a hierarchy, or else you aren't capturing the same information. Any tag that applies to more than half of the files is probably useless. On my blog, the tags "blog" and "technology" are definitely useless. That's fewer than 250 entries and already it has cruft. Were people consistent when they added tags? Does your system suggest tags automatically? Is this actually a full-text search minus stop words? Is there a librarian who cleans up after you and merges tags that have the same meanings? Would the full-text search be more useful than tags?
dredmorbius 5y ago
I have this problem in Pocket. I use ... a lot of tags. (I couldn't tell you without downloading my entire archive and doing some magick to count them, as Pocket won't give me a count itself.) Pocket lags by well over a minute in even starting to populate my tags list after I enter some text into the field. (Chrome/Android, using an external keyboard.) It similarly takes several minutes to scroll through the tag list using either the Web client or the Android app. You could argue that this is a piss-poor UI/UX issue, and I'd agree. It's piss-poor UI/UX issue that Pocket have failed to address since I first reported it over five years ago. https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/5x2sfx/pocket_it_gets_worse_the_more_you_use_it/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/5x2sfx/pocket_... If you'd like another list that has rapid-scannability issues, there's the Library of Congress Subject Headings: These are publicly available. In 27 PDF files, corresponding to printed books ranging from 12 to 842 pages in length: https://www.loc.gov/aba/publications/FreeLCSH/freelcsh.html https://www.loc.gov/aba/publications/FreeLCSH/freelcsh.html

Rygian 5y ago

That's just bad UX of the tag browsers.

dredmorbius 5y ago
If that's the case, how specifically would you improve that UX?
- wander_homer 5y ago
  Have the option to view the tagged items in a tree, which is dynamically created from the tags. For example my audio player does just that, e.g. `%artist%/(%year%) %album%/%tracknumber%.%title%`
  - theon144 5y ago
    Also known as "facets". Sometimes you might want to browse "year/album/artist" too (think Various Artists / compilation albums), instead of the more common "artist/year/album". Or even "artist/year/album" for the more prolific artists out there. Progressively "drilling down" is super low-hanging fruit with regards to tag-based organization, it's seriously neglected.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      Thanks, that's ... closer to what I have in mind. I also agree that the lack of drill-down on tag-based organisation ... kills about 99.9996% of the value. It's sufficiently valuable that you'd expect this to be part of basic implementation libraries by now.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    How are relationships between tags determined or specified? A tagging system is flat by default. Though that makes rendering the tree somewhat easier...
    - wander_homer 5y ago

dredmorbius 5y ago

Another key difference is that a hierarchical (or positional) attribute is acquired inherently by a document's position within that hierarchy or location. In both cases, the hierarchy is inherently positional, affords locality, and guides both the reader and the document by asserting that locality inherently. If you're in a place, then that place gives nearness or farness from objects. If you're an object, you're in some location inherently. Tags, in this sense, are placeless, and don't provide attributes of or guidance to nearness. At least not without some additional mechanism.