4 ms·

I can't help but wonder if the current economy, with all its inequality and disproportionate rewards for the highly skilled, is a necessary step on the path tow

I can't help but wonder if the current economy, with all its inequality and disproportionate rewards for the highly skilled, is a necessary step on the path towards changing the anti-intellectual US culture. You get more of what you reward and less of what you don't. It's not always a pleasant truth, but it's a powerful one.

rayiner 5y ago
Calling it a “step” implies moving in that direction. But the problem in America is that the counter-movement against “anti-intellectualism” is just as anti-intellectual. More people are going to college, but they’re not majoring in math and science. We have an ever expanding ecosystem of non-rigorous *studies fields. These are arguably even less valuable than the cultural norms of Bible-thumping small towns. At least the latter has demonstrated itself as a framework capable of socially supporting communities of people who build things. The former has no track record whatsoever. You can see this exemplified in the fact that, even as we are mocking people for not going to college, we are lowering academic standards and getting rid of gifted programs: https://www.teachforamerica.org/one-day/opinion/stop-eliminating-gifted-programs-and-calling-it-equity https://www.teachforamerica.org/one-day/opinion/stop-elimina.... It’s magical thinking on all sides.
- civilized 5y ago
  The *studies folks are complaining loudly and bitterly of their debt and not having cushy jobs handed to them on a silver platter. In principle this should encourage future students not to take those paths. I agree that I don't like the direction we're headed, but hopefully the natural consequences of that direction will encourage people to revisit their ideological assumptions.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    The natural consequences of this will be China overtaking the US. Americans are not going to enjoy a world where they’re not the dominant power. Among other things they’re really going to hate not being able to print money for consumption free of consequences.
    - civilized 5y ago
      It's a concern, but a strong dollar isn't all roses and sunshine either. For one thing, it makes it hard for the American economy to compete in anything but the highest-margin industries. I'm not convinced that the rise of China will be so bad. Boomers and neocons want us to think so, but their "arguments" are mostly just paranoia and sentimentality.
      - slt2021 5y ago
        just look at the UK - lowering of living standards, wages, inflation across the board. this is what's going to happen to the US, but on much larger scale and worse consequences
      - xyzelement 5y ago
        > I'm not convinced that the rise of China will be so bad. Boomers and neocons want us to think so You're not convinced that going from "living in the most economically dominant and militarily powerful country in the world" to "not" is going to somehow not be a painful experience? You can use the "I am not convinced" line for anything. "I am not convinced that being homeless is worse than living in a nice house" but... ok, what would convince you?
        civilized 5y ago
        What's the big deal whose GDP is bigger? You think China's going to invade us? Maybe it's good that other groups of people besides Americans and Europeans can make leading contributions to economic growth, science and technology. Maybe America's dominance is mainly good for the rich and those who like to invade countries on a whim. I don't care about either of those groups.
        rayiner 5y ago
        A lot of our ability to simply ignore reality—e.g. budget deficits, or comically high infrastructure costs—comes from having the biggest economy and being the most attractive target of investment.
- _jal 5y ago
  > These are arguably even less valuable than the cultural norms of Bible-thumping small towns. Since you seem to be a fan of intellectual rigor, can you describe the process by which you arrive at the relative worth of (apparently) social science programs vs. small town social behavior? Can that method also tell us whether citrus flavors are more valuable than ballet?
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    Nothing he said referenced the social sciences in any way. He referred to * Studies. The Social Sciences all aim at truth in some way, whether you're talking about Sociology, Anthropology, Economics or Political Science.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    Both social sciences and cultural studies are quite self consciously meant to be applied to understanding and improving society. It’s not the study of dead societies, but our own. Culture, meanwhile, is the organically developed heuristics and norms of communities. You can measure the relative worth of these things by looking at the functioning of society on various metrics. Unlike say civil engineers, practitioners of *studies and social sciences have demonstrated little ability to come into a community and make live measurably better for everyone. Arguably, as traditional social norms have been eroded, many communities are less healthy than ever—much more so than you’d expect looking at just the economic numbers. Millennials as a generation are the richest ever, yet seem profoundly unhappy and unsatisfied.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      "Millennials as a generation are the richest ever" That's plain wrong, they have less disposable income and lower net worth than the two generations before them had at the same stage in their life. Just because stock market grew doesn't mean life of an average Joe improved.
      - rayiner 5y ago
        They’re following the same trajectory as previous generations: https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2021/09/01/who-is-the-wealthiest-generation/ https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2021/09/01/who-is-the-w... This stuff is complicated so make sure you’re comparing like with like. Even the chart above ignored one critical adjustment: in 1970 just 5% of the population was foreign born, while today its 15%. Millennials are much more likely today to be recent economic migrants, or the children of them, than boomers. That drags the numbers down, but doesn’t imply anything negative about millennials’ economic status. Indeed, those immigrants are experiencing upward economic mobility, and are seeing themselves that way. The dour attitude among millennials seems to be mainly on the native born, who really are doing as well or better than their parents. At least, they’re doing better economically. Thanks to social changes, they have less agency than their parents did. They have few opportunities to garner authority and respect in their communities. They’re not building families and getting the hope that comes from nurturing the next generation. They have many reasons to be dour. Their parents failed them!
- watwut 5y ago
  Most college students go for practical and business majors. They literally go for what seems to promiss them money. The *studies fields are rather small proportion of students. They also cluster mostly in top universities. It is just not true that they would dominated universities. That one is just paranoia and blaming what you hate anyway.

rayiner 5y ago

Calling it a “step” implies moving in that direction. But the problem in America is that the counter-movement against “anti-intellectualism” is just as anti-intellectual. More people are going to college, but they’re not majoring in math and science. We have an ever expanding ecosystem of non-rigorous *studies fields. These are arguably even less valuable than the cultural norms of Bible-thumping small towns. At least the latter has demonstrated itself as a framework capable of socially supporting communities of people who build things. The former has no track record whatsoever. You can see this exemplified in the fact that, even as we are mocking people for not going to college, we are lowering academic standards and getting rid of gifted programs: https://www.teachforamerica.org/one-day/opinion/stop-eliminating-gifted-programs-and-calling-it-equity https://www.teachforamerica.org/one-day/opinion/stop-elimina.... It’s magical thinking on all sides.

civilized 5y ago
The *studies folks are complaining loudly and bitterly of their debt and not having cushy jobs handed to them on a silver platter. In principle this should encourage future students not to take those paths. I agree that I don't like the direction we're headed, but hopefully the natural consequences of that direction will encourage people to revisit their ideological assumptions.
- rayiner 5y ago
  The natural consequences of this will be China overtaking the US. Americans are not going to enjoy a world where they’re not the dominant power. Among other things they’re really going to hate not being able to print money for consumption free of consequences.
  - civilized 5y ago
    It's a concern, but a strong dollar isn't all roses and sunshine either. For one thing, it makes it hard for the American economy to compete in anything but the highest-margin industries. I'm not convinced that the rise of China will be so bad. Boomers and neocons want us to think so, but their "arguments" are mostly just paranoia and sentimentality.
    - slt2021 5y ago
      just look at the UK - lowering of living standards, wages, inflation across the board. this is what's going to happen to the US, but on much larger scale and worse consequences
    - xyzelement 5y ago
      > I'm not convinced that the rise of China will be so bad. Boomers and neocons want us to think so You're not convinced that going from "living in the most economically dominant and militarily powerful country in the world" to "not" is going to somehow not be a painful experience? You can use the "I am not convinced" line for anything. "I am not convinced that being homeless is worse than living in a nice house" but... ok, what would convince you?
      - civilized 5y ago
        What's the big deal whose GDP is bigger? You think China's going to invade us? Maybe it's good that other groups of people besides Americans and Europeans can make leading contributions to economic growth, science and technology. Maybe America's dominance is mainly good for the rich and those who like to invade countries on a whim. I don't care about either of those groups.
        rayiner 5y ago
        A lot of our ability to simply ignore reality—e.g. budget deficits, or comically high infrastructure costs—comes from having the biggest economy and being the most attractive target of investment.
_jal 5y ago
> These are arguably even less valuable than the cultural norms of Bible-thumping small towns. Since you seem to be a fan of intellectual rigor, can you describe the process by which you arrive at the relative worth of (apparently) social science programs vs. small town social behavior? Can that method also tell us whether citrus flavors are more valuable than ballet?
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  Nothing he said referenced the social sciences in any way. He referred to * Studies. The Social Sciences all aim at truth in some way, whether you're talking about Sociology, Anthropology, Economics or Political Science.
- rayiner 5y ago
  Both social sciences and cultural studies are quite self consciously meant to be applied to understanding and improving society. It’s not the study of dead societies, but our own. Culture, meanwhile, is the organically developed heuristics and norms of communities. You can measure the relative worth of these things by looking at the functioning of society on various metrics. Unlike say civil engineers, practitioners of *studies and social sciences have demonstrated little ability to come into a community and make live measurably better for everyone. Arguably, as traditional social norms have been eroded, many communities are less healthy than ever—much more so than you’d expect looking at just the economic numbers. Millennials as a generation are the richest ever, yet seem profoundly unhappy and unsatisfied.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "Millennials as a generation are the richest ever" That's plain wrong, they have less disposable income and lower net worth than the two generations before them had at the same stage in their life. Just because stock market grew doesn't mean life of an average Joe improved.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      They’re following the same trajectory as previous generations: https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2021/09/01/who-is-the-wealthiest-generation/ https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2021/09/01/who-is-the-w... This stuff is complicated so make sure you’re comparing like with like. Even the chart above ignored one critical adjustment: in 1970 just 5% of the population was foreign born, while today its 15%. Millennials are much more likely today to be recent economic migrants, or the children of them, than boomers. That drags the numbers down, but doesn’t imply anything negative about millennials’ economic status. Indeed, those immigrants are experiencing upward economic mobility, and are seeing themselves that way. The dour attitude among millennials seems to be mainly on the native born, who really are doing as well or better than their parents. At least, they’re doing better economically. Thanks to social changes, they have less agency than their parents did. They have few opportunities to garner authority and respect in their communities. They’re not building families and getting the hope that comes from nurturing the next generation. They have many reasons to be dour. Their parents failed them!
watwut 5y ago
Most college students go for practical and business majors. They literally go for what seems to promiss them money. The *studies fields are rather small proportion of students. They also cluster mostly in top universities. It is just not true that they would dominated universities. That one is just paranoia and blaming what you hate anyway.