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I'd really love to be snarky here but I'll try to be polite: all those comments about the example situation are missing the whole point of the post. And it real

I'd really love to be snarky here but I'll try to be polite: all those comments about the example situation are missing the whole point of the post. And it really worries me that there is a good chunk of the tech workers that just ignores the real meaning of something and just nitpick about stupid implementation details. The post is about managing rookie errors, being empathetic and also warn the ageism that pervades the sector. TBH about this last point IDK the situation nowadays in Silicon Valley, but in Europe my limited experience is that ageism is not that bad; kt's actually difficult to find seasoned developers. Edit: typos

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Cpoll 5y ago
I don't buy it. If the only point was managing rookie errors, etc., the blog post shouldn't have been 15~ paragraphs of technical discussion and 2 paragraphs at the bottom of "my point is ..." You can't advocate that people just ignore 80% of the article because they're "not the point of the post." I'm sure a good chunk of tech workers are worried that when an influential blogger writes something like this a couple hundred developers will Google 3NF and start opening PRs.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  It's a narrative. A story. She told it in that way to lure people who get hooked on technical discussion, and then make the point that they probably would have missed or ignored. Without a narrative example, she could have just said "I made mistakes too, live and learn" but she chose to provide an example before presenting the thesis. And hey, what's so bad about people learning about 3NF? Are you not supposed to know what that is until you're some mythical ninth level DBA?
  - Cpoll 5y ago
    Sure, I don't mind that the hook, and controversial posts often create the most educational discussion. I only take exception to the idea that we shouldn't debate it because it's "not the point." (specifically for technical advice; being over-pedantic is a thing). I certainly don't mean to criticize the author or say that they shouldn't have posted the article. If articles needed to be 100% correct then no-one has any business writing them. And it's still open to debate whether the article is even wrong or misleading. > Are you not supposed to know what that is until you're some mythical ninth level DBA? I think the world might be a better place if people _did_ wait until they were ninth level DBAs :p Jokes aside, I have no problem with people learning 3NF. I'm more concerned that people can be too quick to take this sort of rule-of-thumb advice to heart (myself included). And in my opinion, database optimization is too complex to fit well into simple rules like "normalize when your query looks like this." My only 'rules' for high-frequency/critical tables and queries is "test, profile, load test, and take nothing for granted." But I know just enough to know that I don't know enough about SQL databases to intuit performance.
  - strken 5y ago
    The problem with her point is that it doesn't go anywhere. Mentorship is obviously good and ageism is obviously bad, and she doesn't have specific suggestions on how to solve any of the problems, so the hook is the most substantial thing to talk about.
  - ummonk 5y ago
    If she told it to lure people who get hooked on technical discussion, then it’s not fair for you to complain about said people analyzing said technical discussion.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      But if she told it to show people who get hooked on technical discussion that this often makes them miss a more important point, then they certainly proved her right.
Lewton 5y ago
I’m happy the hn comments are nitpicking, I’m not particularly well versed in database schemas but while reading it I was going “???????” and it’s good to know I’m not going crazy
- ummonk 5y ago
  Yeah I was confused because the new design looked like an obvious anti-pattern to me, in contrast to adding an index to the original table. And then I was wondering whether I had a completely false understanding of what database normalization means (especially since this is the first time I’d heard of 3NF).
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
The reason "the details are important" here are not because of the nitty gritty around what mistakes a "novice" programmer made. They are important because the present incarnation of the author is making all the wrong diagnoses about the problems with the original implementation, despite doing it with an air of "Yes, younger me was so naive and inexperienced, and present me is savvy and wise".
- darkwater 5y ago
  She explained the problem, the first not working solution and the second working solution as they really happened in 2002 as an example. The real point is the last part of the post. And it was not "how to properly implement an sql based filter for open proxies in your MTA".
  - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
    I get all that. But 2020 version of this person still does not understand the problem, and she is arguing that she does while oddly self-deprecating the inexperienced version of herself, who arguably had a better solution to begin with.
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      Yes, I think an alternate design was found that didn't hit as many MySQL limitations as the previous one. This improved performance and was a win. But the post-mortem diagnosis was lacking.
- newaccount74 5y ago
  I think she inadvertently made a different point, which is that even experienced developers sometimes misunderstand the problem and make mistakes. Or an even better argument: you don't need to actually understand the problem to fix it, often you accidentally fix the problem just by using a different approach.
  - 5y ago
shawnz 5y ago
Just because the author was intending to get across a certain point, doesn't mean the implementation details aren't worth discussing too. I don't think many people here would disagree with the central point, so what's there to discuss about it? I think it's uncharitable to assume that everyone talking about the implementation details is "missing the point".
globular-toast 5y ago
The real meaning being that people learn and gain experience over time? Is this really something we need to read two pages of text to find out? I think people are justifiably miffed at having read two pages for such a trivial message. Not only that, but these "stupid implementation details" could seriously mislead someone who really is a clueless newbie.
rmk 5y ago
I think you are leaping to conclusions here. It is possible that most people want to keep HN focused on technical conversations and use this as an opportunity to learn something (I certainly do), which is why you are seeing many more comments on the technical aspects.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
08-15 5y ago
In this blog post, senior engineer Rachel talks nonsense about normalization and promotes a bafflingly complicated solution as superior to a simple one, without identifying the actual fix, which appears to have happened accidentally. In other words, with enough empathy and patience, a clueless rookie can grow into a clueless senior engineer! Rachel usually makes more sense than that. That's why people are nitpicking implementation details.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  Hah, pretty accurate and kinda funny, but could be nicer. I still make mistakes.
  - 08-15 5y ago
    Meanwhile, Rachel posted an update. Apparently, the whole section about how "the system got reworked" doesn't describe the proper solution, but her own (Rookie Rachel's) attempt to fix it. And in that context, everything makes sense.
georgemcbay 5y ago
As a 48 year old who lives in San Diego (so not Silicon Valley but geographically much closer than Europe) and still works as a programmer and who still enjoys coding and continually fights any attempt to put me into any sort of management role... I think ageism is a valid concern but its also not a black and white issue because while I know quite a few older folks like me that are still constantly keeping up to date I've also known some people my age or just a little bit older who basically stagnated into irrelevance as experts in now discarded technology who never really moved on, so the line between what is ageism and what is people just not bringing value to the table anymore can be a bit blurry. I'm by no means trying to suggest ageism isn't an issue in tech, I do see echoes of it when I look around and if I suddenly lost the network of people I work with, have worked with in the past, etc, who understand I'm still very technically 'flexible' for an older person I'm pretty sure it would make it difficult to find a job in the practical sense of getting pre-filtered out often just based on the age thing. So my heart really goes out to people who do find themselves in situations where they are capable but can't find work due to age primarily. But, uh, the issue is somewhat complicated and very case by case, I think.
jmchuster 5y ago
There's probably also some sense of people trying to paint the lesson of "sometimes rookie errors aren't actually errors, and your seniors will tell you you're doing something wrong, when in actuality their solution is worse than what you came up with." Which I guess is saying the article's setup story makes the exact opposite point that it's trying to?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Cpoll 5y ago

I don't buy it. If the only point was managing rookie errors, etc., the blog post shouldn't have been 15~ paragraphs of technical discussion and 2 paragraphs at the bottom of "my point is ..." You can't advocate that people just ignore 80% of the article because they're "not the point of the post." I'm sure a good chunk of tech workers are worried that when an influential blogger writes something like this a couple hundred developers will Google 3NF and start opening PRs.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
unethical_ban 5y ago
It's a narrative. A story. She told it in that way to lure people who get hooked on technical discussion, and then make the point that they probably would have missed or ignored. Without a narrative example, she could have just said "I made mistakes too, live and learn" but she chose to provide an example before presenting the thesis. And hey, what's so bad about people learning about 3NF? Are you not supposed to know what that is until you're some mythical ninth level DBA?
- Cpoll 5y ago
  Sure, I don't mind that the hook, and controversial posts often create the most educational discussion. I only take exception to the idea that we shouldn't debate it because it's "not the point." (specifically for technical advice; being over-pedantic is a thing). I certainly don't mean to criticize the author or say that they shouldn't have posted the article. If articles needed to be 100% correct then no-one has any business writing them. And it's still open to debate whether the article is even wrong or misleading. > Are you not supposed to know what that is until you're some mythical ninth level DBA? I think the world might be a better place if people _did_ wait until they were ninth level DBAs :p Jokes aside, I have no problem with people learning 3NF. I'm more concerned that people can be too quick to take this sort of rule-of-thumb advice to heart (myself included). And in my opinion, database optimization is too complex to fit well into simple rules like "normalize when your query looks like this." My only 'rules' for high-frequency/critical tables and queries is "test, profile, load test, and take nothing for granted." But I know just enough to know that I don't know enough about SQL databases to intuit performance.
- strken 5y ago
  The problem with her point is that it doesn't go anywhere. Mentorship is obviously good and ageism is obviously bad, and she doesn't have specific suggestions on how to solve any of the problems, so the hook is the most substantial thing to talk about.
- ummonk 5y ago
  If she told it to lure people who get hooked on technical discussion, then it’s not fair for you to complain about said people analyzing said technical discussion.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    But if she told it to show people who get hooked on technical discussion that this often makes them miss a more important point, then they certainly proved her right.

Lewton 5y ago

I’m happy the hn comments are nitpicking, I’m not particularly well versed in database schemas but while reading it I was going “???????” and it’s good to know I’m not going crazy

ummonk 5y ago
Yeah I was confused because the new design looked like an obvious anti-pattern to me, in contrast to adding an index to the original table. And then I was wondering whether I had a completely false understanding of what database normalization means (especially since this is the first time I’d heard of 3NF).

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

The reason "the details are important" here are not because of the nitty gritty around what mistakes a "novice" programmer made. They are important because the present incarnation of the author is making all the wrong diagnoses about the problems with the original implementation, despite doing it with an air of "Yes, younger me was so naive and inexperienced, and present me is savvy and wise".

darkwater 5y ago
She explained the problem, the first not working solution and the second working solution as they really happened in 2002 as an example. The real point is the last part of the post. And it was not "how to properly implement an sql based filter for open proxies in your MTA".
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  I get all that. But 2020 version of this person still does not understand the problem, and she is arguing that she does while oddly self-deprecating the inexperienced version of herself, who arguably had a better solution to begin with.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Yes, I think an alternate design was found that didn't hit as many MySQL limitations as the previous one. This improved performance and was a win. But the post-mortem diagnosis was lacking.
newaccount74 5y ago
I think she inadvertently made a different point, which is that even experienced developers sometimes misunderstand the problem and make mistakes. Or an even better argument: you don't need to actually understand the problem to fix it, often you accidentally fix the problem just by using a different approach.
- 5y ago

shawnz 5y ago

Just because the author was intending to get across a certain point, doesn't mean the implementation details aren't worth discussing too. I don't think many people here would disagree with the central point, so what's there to discuss about it? I think it's uncharitable to assume that everyone talking about the implementation details is "missing the point".

globular-toast 5y ago

The real meaning being that people learn and gain experience over time? Is this really something we need to read two pages of text to find out? I think people are justifiably miffed at having read two pages for such a trivial message. Not only that, but these "stupid implementation details" could seriously mislead someone who really is a clueless newbie.

rmk 5y ago

I think you are leaping to conclusions here. It is possible that most people want to keep HN focused on technical conversations and use this as an opportunity to learn something (I certainly do), which is why you are seeing many more comments on the technical aspects.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

08-15 5y ago

In this blog post, senior engineer Rachel talks nonsense about normalization and promotes a bafflingly complicated solution as superior to a simple one, without identifying the actual fix, which appears to have happened accidentally. In other words, with enough empathy and patience, a clueless rookie can grow into a clueless senior engineer! Rachel usually makes more sense than that. That's why people are nitpicking implementation details.

mixmastamyk 5y ago
Hah, pretty accurate and kinda funny, but could be nicer. I still make mistakes.
- 08-15 5y ago
  Meanwhile, Rachel posted an update. Apparently, the whole section about how "the system got reworked" doesn't describe the proper solution, but her own (Rookie Rachel's) attempt to fix it. And in that context, everything makes sense.

georgemcbay 5y ago

As a 48 year old who lives in San Diego (so not Silicon Valley but geographically much closer than Europe) and still works as a programmer and who still enjoys coding and continually fights any attempt to put me into any sort of management role... I think ageism is a valid concern but its also not a black and white issue because while I know quite a few older folks like me that are still constantly keeping up to date I've also known some people my age or just a little bit older who basically stagnated into irrelevance as experts in now discarded technology who never really moved on, so the line between what is ageism and what is people just not bringing value to the table anymore can be a bit blurry. I'm by no means trying to suggest ageism isn't an issue in tech, I do see echoes of it when I look around and if I suddenly lost the network of people I work with, have worked with in the past, etc, who understand I'm still very technically 'flexible' for an older person I'm pretty sure it would make it difficult to find a job in the practical sense of getting pre-filtered out often just based on the age thing. So my heart really goes out to people who do find themselves in situations where they are capable but can't find work due to age primarily. But, uh, the issue is somewhat complicated and very case by case, I think.

jmchuster 5y ago

There's probably also some sense of people trying to paint the lesson of "sometimes rookie errors aren't actually errors, and your seniors will tell you you're doing something wrong, when in actuality their solution is worse than what you came up with." Which I guess is saying the article's setup story makes the exact opposite point that it's trying to?