3 ms·

> to accommodate a set of restrictions designed with the browser in mind That's the whole point, and a very good thing.

tolmasky 5y ago
That was not the whole point, the whole point was to have a feature that could work in a variety of different environments. That’s why this language feature is in the ECMAScript spec and not in the W3C or whatwg, unlike something like “fetch” which is defined by the whatwg and thus has every right to not take other environments into consideration. There is a tremendous amount of subtlety that results from this fact, like how the spec can thus only define a small portion of this feature (syntax and basic semantics), but ultimately needing to leave everything related to fetching, resolving, and executing the code up to the environment (in HTML’s case, the whatwg HTML spec). This really complicates things and creates an unfortunate mismatch in expectations, where most users who have only a passing understanding of this feature and have been sold on the promise of something that will finally “just work” everywhere discover that this isn’t the case at all. There’s a reason why despite being introduced in ECMAScript over 5 years ago it still barely has support in node (and not great support in browsers either btw, but certainly better)— it’s because the reality is that this feature is supremely complicated to implement (despite providing very little tangible benefit), especially in the context of the unrealistic expectations users have developed for it as it continues to be pitched as being the magic tool that will make your code work everywhere without a build tool.
- spankalee 5y ago
  It really is the whole point. TC39 was not going to define a feature that didn't work in browsers, full stop. That Node has to take browser into consideration is a very good thing for universal JavaScript. We can now write code that works in browsers, Node and Deno and that's a great thing. The support in browsers is excellent btw. All current browsers support standard JS modules now. Chrome is leading the way with import maps, import assertions, and JSON and CSS modules, but the other browsers will get there and CJS had nothing comparable to those anyway.
  - tolmasky 5y ago
    It is absolutely not excellent, unless you restrict yourself solely to whether there is a checkmark next to the browser name in mdn. It is very buggy, very difficult to debug, and as I mentioned in another comment, missing serious features (like no subresource integrity which, means we’re encouraging people to use a much less secure system of importing scripts in many cases!) > It really is the whole point. TC39 was not going to define a feature that didn't work in browsers, full stop. No one is saying they shouldn’t have considered the browser! We’re saying they should have also considered other major environments, like node! That’s the way to design a language feature and absolutely what they wanted to do. There were a number of reasons it was rushed out the door, but they’re pretty upfront about the fact that they would do things differently now and basically no other feature would be allowed into the spec in the state ESM made its way in then. I am currently a TC39 delegate and can assure you that it’s OK to admit when things aren’t great so that we can learn from it. It’s how we’ve gotten JS to such a better state than where we were 20 years ago, not by bending over backwards to defend the with() statement.
    - spankalee 5y ago
      I've been using almost exclusively standard modules for years and they work quite well. Old crashers and cache problems I was aware of have been fixed for many years now. I don't know what debugging problems there are that wouldn't exist in CJS. At least with native modules you can see individual requests in the network panel while you're working and individual files in the sources panel while debugging. That alone is a huge increase in debuggability to me. SRI really should be done out of band. Inline SRI would require far to frequent cache invalidation and isn't compatible with package manager workflows where you don't know the exact version of a file you'll depend on. A tool rather should build up an SRI manifest similar to a package lock. This has been discussed several times in module and import map threads. And I don't think JS modules were actually rushed. They were languishing for years with an overly complex loader API and cut down to an MVP with the core agreed upon semantics and that's what finally got everyone to ship. They're really fine, and with import maps, CSS modules, and eventually web bundles, will be far, far superior to any previous alternative. They already are. The fact that Node has some JS module / CJS interop issues (and really only when you try to use JS modules from CJS, the other way is fine) is Node's problem, not TC39's. There's really nothing that TC39 could have done here because synchronous require() is the fundamental problem. It was a bad design from the start and we shouldn't burden ourselves with that bad decision forever. The sooner CJS goes away the better.

That was not the whole point, the whole point was to have a feature that could work in a variety of different environments. That’s why this language feature is in the ECMAScript spec and not in the W3C or whatwg, unlike something like “fetch” which is defined by the whatwg and thus has every right to not take other environments into consideration. There is a tremendous amount of subtlety that results from this fact, like how the spec can thus only define a small portion of this feature (syntax and basic semantics), but ultimately needing to leave everything related to fetching, resolving, and executing the code up to the environment (in HTML’s case, the whatwg HTML spec). This really complicates things and creates an unfortunate mismatch in expectations, where most users who have only a passing understanding of this feature and have been sold on the promise of something that will finally “just work” everywhere discover that this isn’t the case at all. There’s a reason why despite being introduced in ECMAScript over 5 years ago it still barely has support in node (and not great support in browsers either btw, but certainly better)— it’s because the reality is that this feature is supremely complicated to implement (despite providing very little tangible benefit), especially in the context of the unrealistic expectations users have developed for it as it continues to be pitched as being the magic tool that will make your code work everywhere without a build tool.

spankalee 5y ago
It really is the whole point. TC39 was not going to define a feature that didn't work in browsers, full stop. That Node has to take browser into consideration is a very good thing for universal JavaScript. We can now write code that works in browsers, Node and Deno and that's a great thing. The support in browsers is excellent btw. All current browsers support standard JS modules now. Chrome is leading the way with import maps, import assertions, and JSON and CSS modules, but the other browsers will get there and CJS had nothing comparable to those anyway.
- tolmasky 5y ago
  It is absolutely not excellent, unless you restrict yourself solely to whether there is a checkmark next to the browser name in mdn. It is very buggy, very difficult to debug, and as I mentioned in another comment, missing serious features (like no subresource integrity which, means we’re encouraging people to use a much less secure system of importing scripts in many cases!) > It really is the whole point. TC39 was not going to define a feature that didn't work in browsers, full stop. No one is saying they shouldn’t have considered the browser! We’re saying they should have also considered other major environments, like node! That’s the way to design a language feature and absolutely what they wanted to do. There were a number of reasons it was rushed out the door, but they’re pretty upfront about the fact that they would do things differently now and basically no other feature would be allowed into the spec in the state ESM made its way in then. I am currently a TC39 delegate and can assure you that it’s OK to admit when things aren’t great so that we can learn from it. It’s how we’ve gotten JS to such a better state than where we were 20 years ago, not by bending over backwards to defend the with() statement.
  - spankalee 5y ago
    I've been using almost exclusively standard modules for years and they work quite well. Old crashers and cache problems I was aware of have been fixed for many years now. I don't know what debugging problems there are that wouldn't exist in CJS. At least with native modules you can see individual requests in the network panel while you're working and individual files in the sources panel while debugging. That alone is a huge increase in debuggability to me. SRI really should be done out of band. Inline SRI would require far to frequent cache invalidation and isn't compatible with package manager workflows where you don't know the exact version of a file you'll depend on. A tool rather should build up an SRI manifest similar to a package lock. This has been discussed several times in module and import map threads. And I don't think JS modules were actually rushed. They were languishing for years with an overly complex loader API and cut down to an MVP with the core agreed upon semantics and that's what finally got everyone to ship. They're really fine, and with import maps, CSS modules, and eventually web bundles, will be far, far superior to any previous alternative. They already are. The fact that Node has some JS module / CJS interop issues (and really only when you try to use JS modules from CJS, the other way is fine) is Node's problem, not TC39's. There's really nothing that TC39 could have done here because synchronous require() is the fundamental problem. It was a bad design from the start and we shouldn't burden ourselves with that bad decision forever. The sooner CJS goes away the better.