3 ms·

> I think people are correctly stating that Linux problems are not correctly addressed For example?

GhettoComputers 5y ago
I mentioned fragmentation which this is going to make worst. To reiterate, lets say you are a new Linux user, and you see there's tons of linux DE, there are over 600 links for new linux users about opinions on what the best desktop environment is, you are not just given choice, you are forced into choosing GNOME, MATE, CINNAMON, KDE, LxQT, LXDE, XFCE, i3, i3-gaps, awesomeWM, fluxbox, Deepin, Budgie, Pantheon, Enlighten etc and getting used to their apps and settings. Not only that, the distro with its own package manager will need to support that DE, and you will need to rely on them to update it and fix bugs you will encounter. You can buy the System76 one you will get their DE and will probably need to stay on their forums for help, so why would you want to switch to linux? Just because you heard it was supposed to be easier to use and in reality even before you used it and did some light research you'd find the deluge of choices overwhelming and not easy.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Fragmentation is such a silly argument these days when you can install Steam, Spotify, Discord and Telegram on literally every standard Unix-like system these days. The "average person" you're describing isn't going to care about their package manager, their DE or their GTK theme, and why should they? 10 years ago, people used to complain about all these things that Linux couldn't do, and how that was the real reason it died. Nowadays that argument seems to have morphed into "there are to many ways to do things!" which seems pretty shallow to me.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    According to you they don’t care about the DE, so System76 won’t help anyone by making a new one. Normal people according to you don’t care about user interface or ease of use (everyone adopted to Windows 8’s tiles and applauded the end of the outdated start menu), program support (aka package managers with prepackaged binaries which don’t matter since new Linux users can install from compiling source code), themes (beautiful interfaces and clashing UI don’t matter to new Linux users only advanced users). If package managers didn’t matter, and you think the average new user wants to install Discord through command line you’re far too disconnected from reality. https://itsfoss.com/install-discord-linux/#traditional-method https://itsfoss.com/install-discord-linux/#traditional-metho... snaps and flatpak are slower so if package managers don’t matter you’re saying new Linux users will be happy with slow launches, worst performance and forced updates. Linux 10 years ago was simultaneously not able to do things people cared about and had tons of DE you could choose from, which is the point. More DE is not the solution. Linux fragmentation doesn’t solve the issues people care about, GIMP was just as capable as photoshop but they insisted on 3 or more separate windows for their user interface, and only recently was that changed for instance but imagine if they just made different photoshop clones instead of fixing it.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      > so System76 won’t help anyone by making a new one. This is correct. The upgrade isn't for the end-user, it's for the System76 team that was tired of being forced to comply with another desktop's standards. Windows and MacOS users don't have this liberty though, so I say more power to them. It's too early to know if they succeeded or failed, but drawing conclusions this early would probably be a mistake. > If the average new user wants to install Discord through command line you’re far too disconnected from reality. The average user doesn't have to install Discord through the command line, you're cherry picking an example of how they can. Any GUI package manager with support for Flatpak or Snap (see: all of them) has access to prepackaged versions of most software people could want. We could sit here and argue about who's right and which system is wrong, but Linux works perfectly fine for me and thousands of other users. > imagine if they just made different photoshop clones instead of fixing it. Why? Photoshop is not GIMP, they're two completely separate programs with separate goals. Photoshop wants to be a comprehensive, professional photo manipulation suite with strong DRM and lock-in for their ecosystem of products. GIMP wants to be a casual photo editing tool that's unencumbered by licensing. You can run Photoshop on Linux if you really want, but most users realized there's plenty of free software that's better suited for their use case anyways. Your response only solidifies the points I was making earlier. The argument against Linux is one of constantly moving goalposts and subtle, Pyrrhic victories. I won't judge you for staying away from it, but if you intend to shatter the Linux ethos you're going to need a lot more than that.
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        I use Linux and you ignored every point that addresses your points and assume nobody cares about the UI. They could easily contribute to another project or fork, and if DE don’t matter they don’t have to make one either. Linux 10 years ago was simultaneously not able to do things people cared about and had tons of DE you could choose from, which is the point. More DE is not the solution. Linux fragmentation doesn’t solve the issues people care about and makes problems worst. > The average user doesn't have to install Discord through the command line So you changed your mind that that package managers don’t matter. Either they don’t matter and you build from source or they do and you want one with binaries. Which is it? > You can run Photoshop on Linux if you really want, but most users realized there's plenty of free software that's better suited for their use case anyways. Name a replacement for photoshop. Most users didn’t realize there’s plenty of better free software, they are resigned to using many programs because of fragmentation and they don’t have a choice. If by plenty of free software you mean you need 12 different programs to imitate what photoshop does you’re exactly proving my point of why people don’t like Linux, it’s too fragmented, so you have a bunch of crappy apps or people making single use programs by following Unix guidelines, arguing how systemd doesn’t follow it yet contributed greatly to it’s adoption, and wondering why desktop Linux is a failure while android is a success.

I mentioned fragmentation which this is going to make worst. To reiterate, lets say you are a new Linux user, and you see there's tons of linux DE, there are over 600 links for new linux users about opinions on what the best desktop environment is, you are not just given choice, you are forced into choosing GNOME, MATE, CINNAMON, KDE, LxQT, LXDE, XFCE, i3, i3-gaps, awesomeWM, fluxbox, Deepin, Budgie, Pantheon, Enlighten etc and getting used to their apps and settings. Not only that, the distro with its own package manager will need to support that DE, and you will need to rely on them to update it and fix bugs you will encounter. You can buy the System76 one you will get their DE and will probably need to stay on their forums for help, so why would you want to switch to linux? Just because you heard it was supposed to be easier to use and in reality even before you used it and did some light research you'd find the deluge of choices overwhelming and not easy.

smoldesu 5y ago
Fragmentation is such a silly argument these days when you can install Steam, Spotify, Discord and Telegram on literally every standard Unix-like system these days. The "average person" you're describing isn't going to care about their package manager, their DE or their GTK theme, and why should they? 10 years ago, people used to complain about all these things that Linux couldn't do, and how that was the real reason it died. Nowadays that argument seems to have morphed into "there are to many ways to do things!" which seems pretty shallow to me.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  According to you they don’t care about the DE, so System76 won’t help anyone by making a new one. Normal people according to you don’t care about user interface or ease of use (everyone adopted to Windows 8’s tiles and applauded the end of the outdated start menu), program support (aka package managers with prepackaged binaries which don’t matter since new Linux users can install from compiling source code), themes (beautiful interfaces and clashing UI don’t matter to new Linux users only advanced users). If package managers didn’t matter, and you think the average new user wants to install Discord through command line you’re far too disconnected from reality. https://itsfoss.com/install-discord-linux/#traditional-method https://itsfoss.com/install-discord-linux/#traditional-metho... snaps and flatpak are slower so if package managers don’t matter you’re saying new Linux users will be happy with slow launches, worst performance and forced updates. Linux 10 years ago was simultaneously not able to do things people cared about and had tons of DE you could choose from, which is the point. More DE is not the solution. Linux fragmentation doesn’t solve the issues people care about, GIMP was just as capable as photoshop but they insisted on 3 or more separate windows for their user interface, and only recently was that changed for instance but imagine if they just made different photoshop clones instead of fixing it.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    > so System76 won’t help anyone by making a new one. This is correct. The upgrade isn't for the end-user, it's for the System76 team that was tired of being forced to comply with another desktop's standards. Windows and MacOS users don't have this liberty though, so I say more power to them. It's too early to know if they succeeded or failed, but drawing conclusions this early would probably be a mistake. > If the average new user wants to install Discord through command line you’re far too disconnected from reality. The average user doesn't have to install Discord through the command line, you're cherry picking an example of how they can. Any GUI package manager with support for Flatpak or Snap (see: all of them) has access to prepackaged versions of most software people could want. We could sit here and argue about who's right and which system is wrong, but Linux works perfectly fine for me and thousands of other users. > imagine if they just made different photoshop clones instead of fixing it. Why? Photoshop is not GIMP, they're two completely separate programs with separate goals. Photoshop wants to be a comprehensive, professional photo manipulation suite with strong DRM and lock-in for their ecosystem of products. GIMP wants to be a casual photo editing tool that's unencumbered by licensing. You can run Photoshop on Linux if you really want, but most users realized there's plenty of free software that's better suited for their use case anyways. Your response only solidifies the points I was making earlier. The argument against Linux is one of constantly moving goalposts and subtle, Pyrrhic victories. I won't judge you for staying away from it, but if you intend to shatter the Linux ethos you're going to need a lot more than that.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      I use Linux and you ignored every point that addresses your points and assume nobody cares about the UI. They could easily contribute to another project or fork, and if DE don’t matter they don’t have to make one either. Linux 10 years ago was simultaneously not able to do things people cared about and had tons of DE you could choose from, which is the point. More DE is not the solution. Linux fragmentation doesn’t solve the issues people care about and makes problems worst. > The average user doesn't have to install Discord through the command line So you changed your mind that that package managers don’t matter. Either they don’t matter and you build from source or they do and you want one with binaries. Which is it? > You can run Photoshop on Linux if you really want, but most users realized there's plenty of free software that's better suited for their use case anyways. Name a replacement for photoshop. Most users didn’t realize there’s plenty of better free software, they are resigned to using many programs because of fragmentation and they don’t have a choice. If by plenty of free software you mean you need 12 different programs to imitate what photoshop does you’re exactly proving my point of why people don’t like Linux, it’s too fragmented, so you have a bunch of crappy apps or people making single use programs by following Unix guidelines, arguing how systemd doesn’t follow it yet contributed greatly to it’s adoption, and wondering why desktop Linux is a failure while android is a success.