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For most use cases. There are a set of odd behaviors that turn some people away. LinusTechTips is doing a set of videos where they (Linus & Luke) installed Linu

For most use cases. There are a set of odd behaviors that turn some people away. LinusTechTips is doing a set of videos where they (Linus & Luke) installed Linux based OSs on their home gaming desktops. They are QAing Linux as "the average tech enthusiast would see it" and it is very insightful. Stream discussion 1: https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 Stream discussion 2: https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 Stream discussion 3: https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 Stream discussion 4: https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 These are just their discussions (foreshadowing the upcoming videos) but there is some really insightful discussion about what is still hard for someone who hasn't used Linux and what isn't. Some of their first hurdles they had to overcome was issues with their DE, window manager, and other random things that sort of worked correctly but needed a lot of polish to be "just right" or competitive with Windows or MacOS for most users.

ziml77 5y ago
And those discussions on the WAN Show really highlight how much of a bubble some people live in. People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things. People not realizing that there are plenty of people who sit in a spot between hacker nerd and web browsing grandmother. Linus is coming at it from a very realistic angle, but some people are very defensive about the criticisms. They're basically telling him he's "holding it wrong". The Linux community needs to listen to criticisms and find ways to improve the user experience. The nature of choice when it comes to everything you run on Linux means that nothing needs to be compromised for the power user. So what's the harm in making the default experience more friendly and seamless?
- cle 5y ago
  > People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things There is a lot wrong with Linux usability. But Linux != desktop environments. The main usability problems that I've encountered with my non-tech friends are app availability and hardware support. Neither of those will be affected by rewriting a desktop environment from scratch in another language.
smoldesu 5y ago
This has been pretty interesting to watch, because the dichotomy between Luke and Linus is what really interests me. Linus' cynicism is what lead him to reject oft-requested distros like Fedora (which he wrote off as a "meme"), and with nearly every problem he has it seems to be exacerbated into a total disaster. I've seen this kind of behavior before though, where heavy Windows/MacOS users unknowingly engage in self-sabotage when they try out a new OS. Nothing new, but I was surprised that Linus from Linus Tech Tips was the one uninstalling his own desktop environment. Even more surprising was how calmly Luke handled everything. Contrary to Linus' disposition, Luke meets every problem with a thoughtful solution and a willingness to learn, which leaves me rather unsurprised that his Linux experience has gone a lot smoother. On the latest WAN show, Linus flies off on a six-minute tangent where he tries to argue that CLI tools shouldn't exist, only to have the chat dogpile him and remind him that piping between CLI programs is an essential component of Linux. Luke caught onto this pretty quickly, and played devil's advocate, while Linus continued spinning his wheels with the 'muh accessability' bit. In other words, to nobodies surprise, Linus lets his ego stand in the way of correct technical solutions.
- pxc 5y ago
  > In other words, to nobodies surprise, Linus lets his ego stand in the way of correct technical solutions. I also noticed the difference between the two, and you highlight important aspects of it. But are you sure the cause is ego so much as age? When I got into Linux, I was a kid. I had a lot of time, and that gave me a certain kind of patience and determination for tinkering, for customizing, for breaking and fixing things, and for learning to do things in new ways. By comparison, nowadays I'm pretty much a grumpy old man when it comes to my desktop environment and software management tools: I like using my computer a handful of ways, and when I am in an environment that can't support a pretty similar workflow, I find it very irritating. Linus also has a more bespoke setup, using a somewhat cutting edge hardware configuration, and he likely has more responsibilities than Luke at home (he has children!). I do think there is an ego element: Linus thinks of himself as someone who's technically competent— who knows how to use computers— and being in an environment where working like he's used to doesn't work well is probably especially frustrating on that basis. But I don't think it's all of it. I hope other readers don't dismiss all of your observations just because of your apparent personal animus for Linus. This, though: > In other words, to nobodies surprise, Linus lets his ego stand in the way of correct technical solutions. > correct technical solutions We should be pretty careful about how we use the concept of ‘correctness’ when we're talking about desktop operating systems run on our personal computers for activities we undertake for pleasure. Otherwise we can end up saying something pretty silly.

ziml77 5y ago

And those discussions on the WAN Show really highlight how much of a bubble some people live in. People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things. People not realizing that there are plenty of people who sit in a spot between hacker nerd and web browsing grandmother. Linus is coming at it from a very realistic angle, but some people are very defensive about the criticisms. They're basically telling him he's "holding it wrong". The Linux community needs to listen to criticisms and find ways to improve the user experience. The nature of choice when it comes to everything you run on Linux means that nothing needs to be compromised for the power user. So what's the harm in making the default experience more friendly and seamless?

cle 5y ago
> People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things There is a lot wrong with Linux usability. But Linux != desktop environments. The main usability problems that I've encountered with my non-tech friends are app availability and hardware support. Neither of those will be affected by rewriting a desktop environment from scratch in another language.

smoldesu 5y ago

This has been pretty interesting to watch, because the dichotomy between Luke and Linus is what really interests me. Linus' cynicism is what lead him to reject oft-requested distros like Fedora (which he wrote off as a "meme"), and with nearly every problem he has it seems to be exacerbated into a total disaster. I've seen this kind of behavior before though, where heavy Windows/MacOS users unknowingly engage in self-sabotage when they try out a new OS. Nothing new, but I was surprised that Linus from Linus Tech Tips was the one uninstalling his own desktop environment. Even more surprising was how calmly Luke handled everything. Contrary to Linus' disposition, Luke meets every problem with a thoughtful solution and a willingness to learn, which leaves me rather unsurprised that his Linux experience has gone a lot smoother. On the latest WAN show, Linus flies off on a six-minute tangent where he tries to argue that CLI tools shouldn't exist, only to have the chat dogpile him and remind him that piping between CLI programs is an essential component of Linux. Luke caught onto this pretty quickly, and played devil's advocate, while Linus continued spinning his wheels with the 'muh accessability' bit. In other words, to nobodies surprise, Linus lets his ego stand in the way of correct technical solutions.

pxc 5y ago
> In other words, to nobodies surprise, Linus lets his ego stand in the way of correct technical solutions. I also noticed the difference between the two, and you highlight important aspects of it. But are you sure the cause is ego so much as age? When I got into Linux, I was a kid. I had a lot of time, and that gave me a certain kind of patience and determination for tinkering, for customizing, for breaking and fixing things, and for learning to do things in new ways. By comparison, nowadays I'm pretty much a grumpy old man when it comes to my desktop environment and software management tools: I like using my computer a handful of ways, and when I am in an environment that can't support a pretty similar workflow, I find it very irritating. Linus also has a more bespoke setup, using a somewhat cutting edge hardware configuration, and he likely has more responsibilities than Luke at home (he has children!). I do think there is an ego element: Linus thinks of himself as someone who's technically competent— who knows how to use computers— and being in an environment where working like he's used to doesn't work well is probably especially frustrating on that basis. But I don't think it's all of it. I hope other readers don't dismiss all of your observations just because of your apparent personal animus for Linus. This, though: > In other words, to nobodies surprise, Linus lets his ego stand in the way of correct technical solutions. > correct technical solutions We should be pretty careful about how we use the concept of ‘correctness’ when we're talking about desktop operating systems run on our personal computers for activities we undertake for pleasure. Otherwise we can end up saying something pretty silly.