4 ms·

Get what right? The existing DEs are rather excellent.

by cle 5y ago

DrBazza 5y ago
Hit the sweet spot for consumers. It’s been the year of the Linux desktop for a couple of decades now.
- cle 5y ago
  IMO the DEs themselves are excellent, the problems that keep consumers from adopting Linux have nothing to do with DEs themselves (network effects, hardware support, etc.). The only reason my wife doesn't use Linux is b/c it doesn't have the apps she wants, and hardware issues (Bluetooth headsets don't work without ruining the audio quality, sleep/hibernation is hit-or-miss, etc.). I just don't see any issues with DEs that are preventing people from using Linux...I would love to shown wrong, because I would love to see more Linux adoption. But this just seems like a waste of time.
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  > It’s been the year of the Linux desktop for a couple of decades now. Funnily enough, since when Linux started and somehow some people thought it'd be the "Windows killer", Linux now powers pretty much the entire real world (servers / routers / phones / appliances). There are billions of devices running Linux. And still... Because somehow Linux never got to more than 2.5% desktop market share, many see Linux as a failure. This is both funny and mindboggling.
gravypod 5y ago
For most use cases. There are a set of odd behaviors that turn some people away. LinusTechTips is doing a set of videos where they (Linus & Luke) installed Linux based OSs on their home gaming desktops. They are QAing Linux as "the average tech enthusiast would see it" and it is very insightful. Stream discussion 1: https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 Stream discussion 2: https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 Stream discussion 3: https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 Stream discussion 4: https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 These are just their discussions (foreshadowing the upcoming videos) but there is some really insightful discussion about what is still hard for someone who hasn't used Linux and what isn't. Some of their first hurdles they had to overcome was issues with their DE, window manager, and other random things that sort of worked correctly but needed a lot of polish to be "just right" or competitive with Windows or MacOS for most users.
- ziml77 5y ago
  And those discussions on the WAN Show really highlight how much of a bubble some people live in. People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things. People not realizing that there are plenty of people who sit in a spot between hacker nerd and web browsing grandmother. Linus is coming at it from a very realistic angle, but some people are very defensive about the criticisms. They're basically telling him he's "holding it wrong". The Linux community needs to listen to criticisms and find ways to improve the user experience. The nature of choice when it comes to everything you run on Linux means that nothing needs to be compromised for the power user. So what's the harm in making the default experience more friendly and seamless?
  - cle 5y ago
    > People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things There is a lot wrong with Linux usability. But Linux != desktop environments. The main usability problems that I've encountered with my non-tech friends are app availability and hardware support. Neither of those will be affected by rewriting a desktop environment from scratch in another language.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  This has been pretty interesting to watch, because the dichotomy between Luke and Linus is what really interests me. Linus' cynicism is what lead him to reject oft-requested distros like Fedora (which he wrote off as a "meme"), and with nearly every problem he has it seems to be exacerbated into a total disaster. I've seen this kind of behavior before though, where heavy Windows/MacOS users unknowingly engage in self-sabotage when they try out a new OS. Nothing new, but I was surprised that Linus from Linus Tech Tips was the one uninstalling his own desktop environment. Even more surprising was how calmly Luke handled everything. Contrary to Linus' disposition, Luke meets every problem with a thoughtful solution and a willingness to learn, which leaves me rather unsurprised that his Linux experience has gone a lot smoother. On the latest WAN show, Linus flies off on a six-minute tangent where he tries to argue that CLI tools shouldn't exist, only to have the chat dogpile him and remind him that piping between CLI programs is an essential component of Linux. Luke caught onto this pretty quickly, and played devil's advocate, while Linus continued spinning his wheels with the 'muh accessability' bit. In other words, to nobodies surprise, Linus lets his ego stand in the way of correct technical solutions.
unixbane 5y ago
They really aren't. Substantiation for some idiots who will downvote me despite parent comment not providing substantiation: Slowness, slowness, bugs, bugs, more bugs, security vulnerabilities mostly due to insane NIH ways of doing basic IPC stuff.
- otabdeveloper4 5y ago
  So exactly like every other non-Linux desktop environment? You're not making the case for not using Linux here.
  - unixbane 5y ago
    Sorry, I was not following whatever the parents were talking about. I just saw someone claiming Linux DEs are excellent and reacted to that.

Get what right? The existing DEs are rather excellent.

by cle 5y ago

Get what right? The existing DEs are rather excellent.

DrBazza 5y ago

Hit the sweet spot for consumers. It’s been the year of the Linux desktop for a couple of decades now.

cle 5y ago
IMO the DEs themselves are excellent, the problems that keep consumers from adopting Linux have nothing to do with DEs themselves (network effects, hardware support, etc.). The only reason my wife doesn't use Linux is b/c it doesn't have the apps she wants, and hardware issues (Bluetooth headsets don't work without ruining the audio quality, sleep/hibernation is hit-or-miss, etc.). I just don't see any issues with DEs that are preventing people from using Linux...I would love to shown wrong, because I would love to see more Linux adoption. But this just seems like a waste of time.
TacticalCoder 5y ago
> It’s been the year of the Linux desktop for a couple of decades now. Funnily enough, since when Linux started and somehow some people thought it'd be the "Windows killer", Linux now powers pretty much the entire real world (servers / routers / phones / appliances). There are billions of devices running Linux. And still... Because somehow Linux never got to more than 2.5% desktop market share, many see Linux as a failure. This is both funny and mindboggling.

gravypod 5y ago

For most use cases. There are a set of odd behaviors that turn some people away. LinusTechTips is doing a set of videos where they (Linus & Luke) installed Linux based OSs on their home gaming desktops. They are QAing Linux as "the average tech enthusiast would see it" and it is very insightful. Stream discussion 1: https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 https://youtu.be/mvk5tVMZQ_U?t=1247 Stream discussion 2: https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 https://youtu.be/mN3QFw2BEcw?t=3587 Stream discussion 3: https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 https://youtu.be/5MAlgKdsdvg?t=1820 Stream discussion 4: https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 https://youtu.be/h0boUNc1JOg?t=3148 These are just their discussions (foreshadowing the upcoming videos) but there is some really insightful discussion about what is still hard for someone who hasn't used Linux and what isn't. Some of their first hurdles they had to overcome was issues with their DE, window manager, and other random things that sort of worked correctly but needed a lot of polish to be "just right" or competitive with Windows or MacOS for most users.

ziml77 5y ago
And those discussions on the WAN Show really highlight how much of a bubble some people live in. People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things. People not realizing that there are plenty of people who sit in a spot between hacker nerd and web browsing grandmother. Linus is coming at it from a very realistic angle, but some people are very defensive about the criticisms. They're basically telling him he's "holding it wrong". The Linux community needs to listen to criticisms and find ways to improve the user experience. The nature of choice when it comes to everything you run on Linux means that nothing needs to be compromised for the power user. So what's the harm in making the default experience more friendly and seamless?
- cle 5y ago
  > People disagreeing that there's anything wrong with the Linux way of doing things There is a lot wrong with Linux usability. But Linux != desktop environments. The main usability problems that I've encountered with my non-tech friends are app availability and hardware support. Neither of those will be affected by rewriting a desktop environment from scratch in another language.
smoldesu 5y ago
This has been pretty interesting to watch, because the dichotomy between Luke and Linus is what really interests me. Linus' cynicism is what lead him to reject oft-requested distros like Fedora (which he wrote off as a "meme"), and with nearly every problem he has it seems to be exacerbated into a total disaster. I've seen this kind of behavior before though, where heavy Windows/MacOS users unknowingly engage in self-sabotage when they try out a new OS. Nothing new, but I was surprised that Linus from Linus Tech Tips was the one uninstalling his own desktop environment. Even more surprising was how calmly Luke handled everything. Contrary to Linus' disposition, Luke meets every problem with a thoughtful solution and a willingness to learn, which leaves me rather unsurprised that his Linux experience has gone a lot smoother. On the latest WAN show, Linus flies off on a six-minute tangent where he tries to argue that CLI tools shouldn't exist, only to have the chat dogpile him and remind him that piping between CLI programs is an essential component of Linux. Luke caught onto this pretty quickly, and played devil's advocate, while Linus continued spinning his wheels with the 'muh accessability' bit. In other words, to nobodies surprise, Linus lets his ego stand in the way of correct technical solutions.

unixbane 5y ago

They really aren't. Substantiation for some idiots who will downvote me despite parent comment not providing substantiation: Slowness, slowness, bugs, bugs, more bugs, security vulnerabilities mostly due to insane NIH ways of doing basic IPC stuff.

otabdeveloper4 5y ago
So exactly like every other non-Linux desktop environment? You're not making the case for not using Linux here.
- unixbane 5y ago
  Sorry, I was not following whatever the parents were talking about. I just saw someone claiming Linux DEs are excellent and reacted to that.