6 ms·

> some of them are vital to the network‘s internal operations (like OTA updating the list of preferred roaming partners) That should be the phone's job, not th

> some of them are vital to the network‘s internal operations (like OTA updating the list of preferred roaming partners) That should be the phone's job, not the SIM card. > while others enable new use cases (like M-Pesa mobile payments) That should be the phone's job, not the SIM card.

jimktrains2 5y ago
For mobile payment, the SIM acts as a means to sign messages in a way that is difficult to spoof, as you cannot directly access the cryptographic key on it. This existed and worked long before secure elements or TPUs were on the scene.
jedimastert 5y ago
That requires phone manufacturers to consistently send out updates in concert with many many phone carriers, including new ones no one has never heard of. I do not trust a single carrier to do that
- lxgr 5y ago
  True – not even Apple gets this right, being otherwise pretty good about timely software updates. My MVNO started being recognized incorrectly as being part of another network years ago, and apparently their engineers have been unable to reach anyone within Apple about the matter and get theem to apply what should be a trivial fix in their IMSI mapping table.
  - username190 5y ago
    Apple has never been good in this department, according to the folks I've talked to within mobile carriers. Even Google, a nearly $2T company, operates an MVNO ("Google Fi") that does not work properly on the iPhone, because Apple has not added Fi's GID to the correct list. Jailbroken users can (in theory) add Fi's GID to T-Mobile's "carrier bundle," and things like Wi-Fi calling, 5G connectivity, etc will work instantly.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      I believe this is because Apple don't want iPhone to be used in unapproved network. Apple want to sign agreement with network operator to sell iPhone.
    - JoshTriplett 5y ago
      Originally there was a technical reason for that: Google Fi uses several carriers, not just T-Mobile, to increase coverage, and at the time preliminary iPhone support first came out for Google Fi, iPhones didn't have support for connecting to two carriers at once and switching back and forth between them based on signal. So right now, someone on Google Fi with an iPhone and someone on Google Fi with an Android phone can be standing next to each other, and the Android phone could have great signal while the iPhone has zero signal because T-Mobile has no coverage at that location. I don't know if iPhones now support that; if they do, then there's no longer any technical reason iPhones couldn't have first-class support for Fi.
- JoshTriplett 5y ago
  > That requires phone manufacturers to consistently send out updates in concert with many many phone carriers The carriers could still provide information about their network, via a standard API. I'm talking about how this should work if designed well, not incremental steps to get there with non-cooperating entities.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    > I'm talking about how this should work if designed well I think that I've fantasized about this magical land with literally every system I've ever worked with in my entire career, including ones of my own design. I've come to suspect that utopia simply doesn't exist.
lxgr 5y ago
> That should be the phone's job, not the SIM card. [internal operations] Maybe, but what would inevitably happen is for network operators to demand that only certified devices, or maybe basebands, be allowed on their networks. SIMs are a big reason of GSMs (and its successors') success: Having a trusted computing device to allow for key management and a few other things inside an otherwise untrusted/sandboxed phone was the compromise. I'm all for making the interfaces used less opaque and less prone to be used for shady purposes, but the concept of SIM cards is a net win for everyone, in my opinion. > That should be the phone's job, not the SIM card. [applications] If you have a smartphone, it is. Many people still don't own one. USSD is an alternative and is starting to be deployed in many markets previously using SAT, but it seems much more cumbersome to use and is less secure too (no trusted client side storage and tied to the security of the underlying transport protocols).
- JoshTriplett 5y ago
  > Maybe, but what would inevitably happen is for network operators to demand that only certified devices, or maybe basebands, be allowed on their networks. There was already a battle between AT&T and people who dared connect phones they actually owned to the phone network, and it ended well for the general public and badly for AT&T. The cell network should not get to determine what people attach to it; it should just pass data back and forth. (In an ideal world, the cell network would have absolutely nothing to do with phone numbers, either; it would just pass data, and phonecalls would always happen over encrypted channels to your actual phone-number provider.) > the concept of SIM cards is a net win for everyone, in my opinion Public/private key crypto doesn't require a card that can also do other secret operations. And it doesn't require a smartcard either.
  - lxgr 5y ago
    > The cell network should not get to determine what people attach to it; it should just pass data back and forth. I absolutely agree. > And it doesn't require a smartcard either. There are many good reasons why a counterparty does not trust you (fully) with a set of keys. The biggest one is keys that allow financial transactions or billing events to happen: It makes the "I lost my password" defense for friendly fraud much less credible. Another can be to discourage sharing of a service (i.e. "account sharing"). Now there's two ways to keep "your" keys safe as a service provider: You build a fully locked down platform and only allow devices sold and made by you to attach to it (and play your content, use your phone network, transact on your payments network etc.), or you standardize the interface to the "key jail", keeping the rest of the device open and accessible to independent security research. You can call such a tamper-proof device holding some issuer's private or symmetric key any way you want – functionally, it will be very similar to a smartcard.
0xTJ 5y ago
I strongly disagree on the first point. The carriers used are entirely an issue with my carrier. I don't use a phone that's in any way associated with my carrier, and I expect the SIM card to "just work" when I put it in a phone.
- lxgr 5y ago
  Would you rather have to copy-paste an arbitrary list of parameters into some preference menu option every time you travel internationally? (Ironically, SIMs are falling short on this end quite a lot since they don't allow providing GPRS and MMS related configuration, which means that now we have SIMs and manual lists...)
  - 0xTJ 5y ago
    I'm confused by what you're saying. I'm disagreeing with the comment saying that SIM cards being smart is bad.
    - lxgr 5y ago
      Ah, sorry, I must have misunderstood you or mixed up comments! Yes, I agree that SIMs being (moderately) smart helps them to just work in a new phone without any affiliation with the carrier. It's not perfect, though – APN settings are annoyingly part of the OS when they should arguably be a SIM and baseband implementation detail like the SMSC, for example.

jimktrains2 5y ago

For mobile payment, the SIM acts as a means to sign messages in a way that is difficult to spoof, as you cannot directly access the cryptographic key on it. This existed and worked long before secure elements or TPUs were on the scene.

jedimastert 5y ago

That requires phone manufacturers to consistently send out updates in concert with many many phone carriers, including new ones no one has never heard of. I do not trust a single carrier to do that

lxgr 5y ago
True – not even Apple gets this right, being otherwise pretty good about timely software updates. My MVNO started being recognized incorrectly as being part of another network years ago, and apparently their engineers have been unable to reach anyone within Apple about the matter and get theem to apply what should be a trivial fix in their IMSI mapping table.
- username190 5y ago
  Apple has never been good in this department, according to the folks I've talked to within mobile carriers. Even Google, a nearly $2T company, operates an MVNO ("Google Fi") that does not work properly on the iPhone, because Apple has not added Fi's GID to the correct list. Jailbroken users can (in theory) add Fi's GID to T-Mobile's "carrier bundle," and things like Wi-Fi calling, 5G connectivity, etc will work instantly.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    I believe this is because Apple don't want iPhone to be used in unapproved network. Apple want to sign agreement with network operator to sell iPhone.
  - JoshTriplett 5y ago
    Originally there was a technical reason for that: Google Fi uses several carriers, not just T-Mobile, to increase coverage, and at the time preliminary iPhone support first came out for Google Fi, iPhones didn't have support for connecting to two carriers at once and switching back and forth between them based on signal. So right now, someone on Google Fi with an iPhone and someone on Google Fi with an Android phone can be standing next to each other, and the Android phone could have great signal while the iPhone has zero signal because T-Mobile has no coverage at that location. I don't know if iPhones now support that; if they do, then there's no longer any technical reason iPhones couldn't have first-class support for Fi.
JoshTriplett 5y ago
> That requires phone manufacturers to consistently send out updates in concert with many many phone carriers The carriers could still provide information about their network, via a standard API. I'm talking about how this should work if designed well, not incremental steps to get there with non-cooperating entities.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  > I'm talking about how this should work if designed well I think that I've fantasized about this magical land with literally every system I've ever worked with in my entire career, including ones of my own design. I've come to suspect that utopia simply doesn't exist.

lxgr 5y ago

> That should be the phone's job, not the SIM card. [internal operations] Maybe, but what would inevitably happen is for network operators to demand that only certified devices, or maybe basebands, be allowed on their networks. SIMs are a big reason of GSMs (and its successors') success: Having a trusted computing device to allow for key management and a few other things inside an otherwise untrusted/sandboxed phone was the compromise. I'm all for making the interfaces used less opaque and less prone to be used for shady purposes, but the concept of SIM cards is a net win for everyone, in my opinion. > That should be the phone's job, not the SIM card. [applications] If you have a smartphone, it is. Many people still don't own one. USSD is an alternative and is starting to be deployed in many markets previously using SAT, but it seems much more cumbersome to use and is less secure too (no trusted client side storage and tied to the security of the underlying transport protocols).

JoshTriplett 5y ago
> Maybe, but what would inevitably happen is for network operators to demand that only certified devices, or maybe basebands, be allowed on their networks. There was already a battle between AT&T and people who dared connect phones they actually owned to the phone network, and it ended well for the general public and badly for AT&T. The cell network should not get to determine what people attach to it; it should just pass data back and forth. (In an ideal world, the cell network would have absolutely nothing to do with phone numbers, either; it would just pass data, and phonecalls would always happen over encrypted channels to your actual phone-number provider.) > the concept of SIM cards is a net win for everyone, in my opinion Public/private key crypto doesn't require a card that can also do other secret operations. And it doesn't require a smartcard either.
- lxgr 5y ago
  > The cell network should not get to determine what people attach to it; it should just pass data back and forth. I absolutely agree. > And it doesn't require a smartcard either. There are many good reasons why a counterparty does not trust you (fully) with a set of keys. The biggest one is keys that allow financial transactions or billing events to happen: It makes the "I lost my password" defense for friendly fraud much less credible. Another can be to discourage sharing of a service (i.e. "account sharing"). Now there's two ways to keep "your" keys safe as a service provider: You build a fully locked down platform and only allow devices sold and made by you to attach to it (and play your content, use your phone network, transact on your payments network etc.), or you standardize the interface to the "key jail", keeping the rest of the device open and accessible to independent security research. You can call such a tamper-proof device holding some issuer's private or symmetric key any way you want – functionally, it will be very similar to a smartcard.

0xTJ 5y ago

I strongly disagree on the first point. The carriers used are entirely an issue with my carrier. I don't use a phone that's in any way associated with my carrier, and I expect the SIM card to "just work" when I put it in a phone.

lxgr 5y ago
Would you rather have to copy-paste an arbitrary list of parameters into some preference menu option every time you travel internationally? (Ironically, SIMs are falling short on this end quite a lot since they don't allow providing GPRS and MMS related configuration, which means that now we have SIMs and manual lists...)
- 0xTJ 5y ago
  I'm confused by what you're saying. I'm disagreeing with the comment saying that SIM cards being smart is bad.
  - lxgr 5y ago
    Ah, sorry, I must have misunderstood you or mixed up comments! Yes, I agree that SIMs being (moderately) smart helps them to just work in a new phone without any affiliation with the carrier. It's not perfect, though – APN settings are annoyingly part of the OS when they should arguably be a SIM and baseband implementation detail like the SMSC, for example.