3 ms·

Why do people keep looking at Israel... It's not even near to any meaningful % of vaccination... We have several countries with higher rates https://ourworldin

by lampe3 5y ago

Why do people keep looking at Israel... It's not even near to any meaningful % of vaccination... We have several countries with higher rates https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations Also in Germany for example 90% of the covid people in hospitals are fully unvaccinated people.

m0zg 5y ago
> Also in Germany for example 90% of the covid people in hospitals are fully unvaccinated people. You'd do well providing some data for this quip. I've spent 10 minutes searching and could not find a confirmation. It's just the generic "hospitals are overwhelmed" BS. At least it's BS in the United States (which has a much higher case load), where you can see whether hospitals are overwhelmed or not (and yes, they are not), right on HHSs own website: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization
- pgeorgi 5y ago
  Couldn't find national numbers, just lots of regional queries with hospitals: https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/panorama/corona-krankenhaus-vollstaendig-geimpft-anteil-100.html https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/panorama/corona-k... (2011-11-05) covers Eastern Germany: 2/3 of covid19 patients not vaccinated at all, 3/4 not fully vaccinated (== 2 shots, or 1 shot in case of J&J) https://www.hamburg.de/nachrichten-hamburg/15579956/corona-patienten-ueberwiegend-ungeimpft-personalmangel/ https://www.hamburg.de/nachrichten-hamburg/15579956/corona-p... (2021-11-06) Hamburg: 205 of 240 (== 85.4%) ICU covid19 patients unvaccinated, 5% not fully vaccinated, 9.6% fully vaccinated https://klinikum-darmstadt.de/aktuelles-news/ungeimpfte-corona-patientinnen-auf-der-intensivstation https://klinikum-darmstadt.de/aktuelles-news/ungeimpfte-coro... Darmstadt (2021-09-21): "nearly exclusively unvaccinated" ICU covid19 patients. 50% of ICU capacity is filled with covid19 patients. https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/corona-fast-nur-ungeimpfte-auf-intensivstationen-in-muenchen,SkJCX9p https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/corona-fast-nur-ungeimp... Munich (2021-10-02): One hospital was at 100% unvaccinated covid19 patients (that's the twitter screenshot from 2021-09-28). They asked the other hospitals: 5 + 1 and 10 + 2 of unvaccinated + "vaccinated but couldn't build resistance for some reason". Further away in the region 100% unvaccinated (ICU and "regular" covid19 treatment) So I haven't found national numbers but lots of regional ones, and while there are a few counts lower (at 2/3 and 85%), there were also hospitals with entirely unvaccinated covid19 populations, both on ICU and in regular care. [edit to add:] Found an article about nation wide numbers and it covers the 90%: https://www.rnd.de/gesundheit/corona-intensivpatienten-rund-90-prozent-ungeimpft-3WL7AHCBWJ3BK6UY4PGFR5T45I.html https://www.rnd.de/gesundheit/corona-intensivpatienten-rund-... Title: About 90% of covid19 ICU patients not vaccinated. The bullet points state: In August and September, about 1/10 of covid19 ICU patients were fully vaccinated. Those were often people with an impaired immune system, e.g. due to chemotherapy. The numbers were (assembled and) released by the federal health office on request of a member of Parliament.
  - m0zg 5y ago
    So 90% number is not supported. If primary occupants of the ICU are immunocompromised people, why the fuck are governments not prioritizing _them_ and instead wasting vaccine doses on young people and children who, if healthy, are not at risk at all? Even though Germany has done relatively well compared to other countries, the response still seems to make zero sense there. Blanket mandate is not needed. Raw vaccination rates are utterly meaningless without seeing details wrt age and comorbidities, or figuing out who ends up in the ICU, and targeting those kinds of people for vaccination. Why, 2 years in, such obvious things are so hard for the governments to figure out? Is it because most people in the government are lawyers and not engineers?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
mewpmewp2 5y ago
What about Singapore? So high vaccination rate, but even with such high rate, cases started to climb: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore
- ciceryadam 5y ago
  And it will climb even higher: The city-state’s Ministry of Health reported last month that about 100,000 people aged 60 and above were yet to be vaccinated despite having been in the priority category. There was a new daily high of 18 deaths in Singapore on Wednesday - as well as a near record 3862 new cases - and the unvaccinated elderly accounted for more than two-thirds of patients who had passed away from the virus or were in the ICU, Health Minister and fellow taskforce co-chair Ong Ye Kung said. “For the unvaccinated seniors in their 60s, our data shows one in four will require oxygen, ICU care or will succumb,” he said. https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/singapore-s-recovery-stalled-by-100k-stubborn-seniors-who-won-t-get-jabs-20211021-p5920c.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/singapore-s-recovery-stall...
  - m0zg 5y ago
    > one in four will require oxygen, ICU care or will succumb, Note how this is deliberately constructed to scare the bejesus out of people. It's like saying "one in four will pick their nose, have explosive diarrhea, or blow their head off with a shotgun". If you don't read carefully enough, which most people don't, you'll be misled into thinking a bunch of people are about to die (rather than ruin their porcelain throne for the day), but they have plausible deniability. "We just didn't phrase it quite right". This does not improve public trust in vaccines _at all_. Do we need folks 60+ to voluntarily vaccinate? Yes. No doubt about it. But _this is not the way_ to achieve that goal. Transparency and persuasion is how you do it, not verbal tricks like that.
    - ciceryadam 5y ago
      Singapore has about 1650 isolation beds and 200 ICU places. 25000 people older than 60 (1 in 4 figure from the article) can easily overwhelm this capacity.
johnchristopher 5y ago
In Flanders, 70% of people in hospitals for Covid are vaccinated. What do we make of that contrast ?
- wasmitnetzen 5y ago
  Flanders has only 20% unvaccinated people, Germany has 34%, that already 75% more. If you subtract children on both sides, that leaves a lot more unvaccinated Germans to be infected, easily in the 2x to 3x range.

by lampe3 5y ago

m0zg 5y ago

> Also in Germany for example 90% of the covid people in hospitals are fully unvaccinated people. You'd do well providing some data for this quip. I've spent 10 minutes searching and could not find a confirmation. It's just the generic "hospitals are overwhelmed" BS. At least it's BS in the United States (which has a much higher case load), where you can see whether hospitals are overwhelmed or not (and yes, they are not), right on HHSs own website: https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization https://protect-public.hhs.gov/pages/hospital-utilization

pgeorgi 5y ago
Couldn't find national numbers, just lots of regional queries with hospitals: https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/panorama/corona-krankenhaus-vollstaendig-geimpft-anteil-100.html https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/panorama/corona-k... (2011-11-05) covers Eastern Germany: 2/3 of covid19 patients not vaccinated at all, 3/4 not fully vaccinated (== 2 shots, or 1 shot in case of J&J) https://www.hamburg.de/nachrichten-hamburg/15579956/corona-patienten-ueberwiegend-ungeimpft-personalmangel/ https://www.hamburg.de/nachrichten-hamburg/15579956/corona-p... (2021-11-06) Hamburg: 205 of 240 (== 85.4%) ICU covid19 patients unvaccinated, 5% not fully vaccinated, 9.6% fully vaccinated https://klinikum-darmstadt.de/aktuelles-news/ungeimpfte-corona-patientinnen-auf-der-intensivstation https://klinikum-darmstadt.de/aktuelles-news/ungeimpfte-coro... Darmstadt (2021-09-21): "nearly exclusively unvaccinated" ICU covid19 patients. 50% of ICU capacity is filled with covid19 patients. https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/corona-fast-nur-ungeimpfte-auf-intensivstationen-in-muenchen,SkJCX9p https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/corona-fast-nur-ungeimp... Munich (2021-10-02): One hospital was at 100% unvaccinated covid19 patients (that's the twitter screenshot from 2021-09-28). They asked the other hospitals: 5 + 1 and 10 + 2 of unvaccinated + "vaccinated but couldn't build resistance for some reason". Further away in the region 100% unvaccinated (ICU and "regular" covid19 treatment) So I haven't found national numbers but lots of regional ones, and while there are a few counts lower (at 2/3 and 85%), there were also hospitals with entirely unvaccinated covid19 populations, both on ICU and in regular care. [edit to add:] Found an article about nation wide numbers and it covers the 90%: https://www.rnd.de/gesundheit/corona-intensivpatienten-rund-90-prozent-ungeimpft-3WL7AHCBWJ3BK6UY4PGFR5T45I.html https://www.rnd.de/gesundheit/corona-intensivpatienten-rund-... Title: About 90% of covid19 ICU patients not vaccinated. The bullet points state: In August and September, about 1/10 of covid19 ICU patients were fully vaccinated. Those were often people with an impaired immune system, e.g. due to chemotherapy. The numbers were (assembled and) released by the federal health office on request of a member of Parliament.
- m0zg 5y ago
  So 90% number is not supported. If primary occupants of the ICU are immunocompromised people, why the fuck are governments not prioritizing _them_ and instead wasting vaccine doses on young people and children who, if healthy, are not at risk at all? Even though Germany has done relatively well compared to other countries, the response still seems to make zero sense there. Blanket mandate is not needed. Raw vaccination rates are utterly meaningless without seeing details wrt age and comorbidities, or figuing out who ends up in the ICU, and targeting those kinds of people for vaccination. Why, 2 years in, such obvious things are so hard for the governments to figure out? Is it because most people in the government are lawyers and not engineers?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

mewpmewp2 5y ago

What about Singapore? So high vaccination rate, but even with such high rate, cases started to climb: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore

ciceryadam 5y ago
And it will climb even higher: The city-state’s Ministry of Health reported last month that about 100,000 people aged 60 and above were yet to be vaccinated despite having been in the priority category. There was a new daily high of 18 deaths in Singapore on Wednesday - as well as a near record 3862 new cases - and the unvaccinated elderly accounted for more than two-thirds of patients who had passed away from the virus or were in the ICU, Health Minister and fellow taskforce co-chair Ong Ye Kung said. “For the unvaccinated seniors in their 60s, our data shows one in four will require oxygen, ICU care or will succumb,” he said. https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/singapore-s-recovery-stalled-by-100k-stubborn-seniors-who-won-t-get-jabs-20211021-p5920c.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/singapore-s-recovery-stall...
- m0zg 5y ago
  > one in four will require oxygen, ICU care or will succumb, Note how this is deliberately constructed to scare the bejesus out of people. It's like saying "one in four will pick their nose, have explosive diarrhea, or blow their head off with a shotgun". If you don't read carefully enough, which most people don't, you'll be misled into thinking a bunch of people are about to die (rather than ruin their porcelain throne for the day), but they have plausible deniability. "We just didn't phrase it quite right". This does not improve public trust in vaccines _at all_. Do we need folks 60+ to voluntarily vaccinate? Yes. No doubt about it. But _this is not the way_ to achieve that goal. Transparency and persuasion is how you do it, not verbal tricks like that.
  - ciceryadam 5y ago
    Singapore has about 1650 isolation beds and 200 ICU places. 25000 people older than 60 (1 in 4 figure from the article) can easily overwhelm this capacity.

johnchristopher 5y ago

In Flanders, 70% of people in hospitals for Covid are vaccinated. What do we make of that contrast ?

wasmitnetzen 5y ago
Flanders has only 20% unvaccinated people, Germany has 34%, that already 75% more. If you subtract children on both sides, that leaves a lot more unvaccinated Germans to be infected, easily in the 2x to 3x range.