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I pay for Netflix and Hulu Plus streaming (the latter of which still comes with ads). If it's not on there, I feel like I've done my due diligence and have no e

I pay for Netflix and Hulu Plus streaming (the latter of which still comes with ads). If it's not on there, I feel like I've done my due diligence and have no ethical dilemma with pirating. I tried to find a $200 Porsche, but couldn't so I had no problem stealing one.

bdhe 15y ago
I tried to find a $200 Porsche, but couldn't so I had no problem stealing one. At first glance this might seem a fine refutation of the earlier point, but upon deeper inspection, it falls back on the fallacy that digital data is analogous to tangible property. By stealing a Porsche (whatever be your motivation) you are denying another person the right to his car. However, the same is untrue of pirating. I am firmly of the belief that until we abandon the false and forced analogies and treat digital data and IP as something new, something that requires us to work out ethics and moral of afresh, we'll be stuck in this rut of old business models forcing new technology to fit into their mold and the consumers suffering because of bureaucracy. I'll go further and state that the precise reason why Movie Studios and Recording Labels seemingly don't want to innovate and adopt new technologies to their benefit is precisely because of this thinking that immediately clouds all other possible arguments (oh, and maybe the people in charge of making decisions have got to the top because of their understanding of old technologies and therefore have little incentive to abandon that and embrace newer ways of doing business) /rant
- drivingmenuts 15y ago
  The studios are terrified because the moment someone figures out an effective metric, they're toast. Physical unit sales are easy - one CD sold, X dollars received, with corresponding breakdown to show what value they actually add (lying about their value-add is another thing entirely). One digital download - it's not so clear.
  - klipt 15y ago
    Steam makes tons of cash from (relatively) cheap digital downloads. The studios are just way behind. (In fact Steam probably makes most of their money from sales where hoarder-type personalities buy hundreds of games they never even play.)
- hugh3 15y ago
  I am firmly of the belief that until we abandon the false and forced analogies and treat digital data and IP as something new, something that requires us to work out ethics and moral of afresh, we'll be stuck in this rut of old business models forcing new technology to fit into their mold and the consumers suffering because of bureaucracy. It's not analogous to stealing a Porsche, but it's not analogous to nothing either. There's nothing particularly novel about it, people have been stealing services in ways that don't directly deprive anyone else for... well, quite some time. They've been sneaking into theaters, sneaking onto buses, and otherwise dishonestly using services that the honest people pay for, and which couldn't exist without them. It's just the old free rider problem. Morally there's nothing "new" about it. And it's not particularly difficult to work out the answer to a question about "is it morally acceptable to sneak into a non-full movie theater?" The only question is whether you're prepared to behave immorally to save a few bucks. Personally I value my self-respect a bit higher than that.
lhnn 15y ago
Analogies between digital and physical items regarding piracy are always fallacies. His point is that if he CAN'T pay for it, having no avenue to give them revenue, then it doesn't hurt the content creator for the OP to consume the video for free.
- goatforce5 15y ago
  You've deprived the content creator (well, a distributor) the chance to make money from you consuming the content at some point in the future. eg, Fox will let you watch their content on Hulu 8 days after broadcast. But you don't want to wait 8 days, so you go pirate it. Fox makes no money. If you'd waited the 8 days, Fox would show it to you via Hulu, and show you some ads, and they and Hulu would have made some money.
  - sp332 15y ago
    Right, if I actually interacted with a distributor in any way, you might make a case that I owe them something. But the whole point is, that I have no interaction with the distributor, so I don't owe them anything. I'm not using their services, so I don't pay them for those services.
    - goatforce5 15y ago
      The content creator typically sells some or all rights to their content to a distributor. Often it's that money that allows the content to be made in the first place, and if the distributors weren't there you wouldn't have the same range as content as is available today. The distributor is a very important part of the creation process at the moment.
      - sp332 15y ago
        And if distributors had anything to sell me that I wanted, maybe I would give them some money for it. But they don't sell anything I want to buy, and that's why I'm not giving them any money.
sp332 15y ago
Ooh, a car analogy! Here's mine: I went to a car dealer and offered to pay for a copy of a car. But he wouldn't sell me one, so I found someone else who had the same kind of car and made a copy of theirs instead.
chopsueyar 15y ago
You have a Porsche replicator? Awesome!

bdhe 15y ago

I tried to find a $200 Porsche, but couldn't so I had no problem stealing one. At first glance this might seem a fine refutation of the earlier point, but upon deeper inspection, it falls back on the fallacy that digital data is analogous to tangible property. By stealing a Porsche (whatever be your motivation) you are denying another person the right to his car. However, the same is untrue of pirating. I am firmly of the belief that until we abandon the false and forced analogies and treat digital data and IP as something new, something that requires us to work out ethics and moral of afresh, we'll be stuck in this rut of old business models forcing new technology to fit into their mold and the consumers suffering because of bureaucracy. I'll go further and state that the precise reason why Movie Studios and Recording Labels seemingly don't want to innovate and adopt new technologies to their benefit is precisely because of this thinking that immediately clouds all other possible arguments (oh, and maybe the people in charge of making decisions have got to the top because of their understanding of old technologies and therefore have little incentive to abandon that and embrace newer ways of doing business) /rant

drivingmenuts 15y ago
The studios are terrified because the moment someone figures out an effective metric, they're toast. Physical unit sales are easy - one CD sold, X dollars received, with corresponding breakdown to show what value they actually add (lying about their value-add is another thing entirely). One digital download - it's not so clear.
- klipt 15y ago
  Steam makes tons of cash from (relatively) cheap digital downloads. The studios are just way behind. (In fact Steam probably makes most of their money from sales where hoarder-type personalities buy hundreds of games they never even play.)
hugh3 15y ago
I am firmly of the belief that until we abandon the false and forced analogies and treat digital data and IP as something new, something that requires us to work out ethics and moral of afresh, we'll be stuck in this rut of old business models forcing new technology to fit into their mold and the consumers suffering because of bureaucracy. It's not analogous to stealing a Porsche, but it's not analogous to nothing either. There's nothing particularly novel about it, people have been stealing services in ways that don't directly deprive anyone else for... well, quite some time. They've been sneaking into theaters, sneaking onto buses, and otherwise dishonestly using services that the honest people pay for, and which couldn't exist without them. It's just the old free rider problem. Morally there's nothing "new" about it. And it's not particularly difficult to work out the answer to a question about "is it morally acceptable to sneak into a non-full movie theater?" The only question is whether you're prepared to behave immorally to save a few bucks. Personally I value my self-respect a bit higher than that.

lhnn 15y ago

Analogies between digital and physical items regarding piracy are always fallacies. His point is that if he CAN'T pay for it, having no avenue to give them revenue, then it doesn't hurt the content creator for the OP to consume the video for free.

goatforce5 15y ago
You've deprived the content creator (well, a distributor) the chance to make money from you consuming the content at some point in the future. eg, Fox will let you watch their content on Hulu 8 days after broadcast. But you don't want to wait 8 days, so you go pirate it. Fox makes no money. If you'd waited the 8 days, Fox would show it to you via Hulu, and show you some ads, and they and Hulu would have made some money.
- sp332 15y ago
  Right, if I actually interacted with a distributor in any way, you might make a case that I owe them something. But the whole point is, that I have no interaction with the distributor, so I don't owe them anything. I'm not using their services, so I don't pay them for those services.
  - goatforce5 15y ago
    The content creator typically sells some or all rights to their content to a distributor. Often it's that money that allows the content to be made in the first place, and if the distributors weren't there you wouldn't have the same range as content as is available today. The distributor is a very important part of the creation process at the moment.
    - sp332 15y ago
      And if distributors had anything to sell me that I wanted, maybe I would give them some money for it. But they don't sell anything I want to buy, and that's why I'm not giving them any money.

sp332 15y ago

Ooh, a car analogy! Here's mine: I went to a car dealer and offered to pay for a copy of a car. But he wouldn't sell me one, so I found someone else who had the same kind of car and made a copy of theirs instead.

chopsueyar 15y ago

You have a Porsche replicator? Awesome!