5 ms·
I am ashamed to say that, having been trained in classical music, I used to think exactly the same thing about jazz. Jazz for me was either elevator music or ra
by rtsil 5y ago
I am ashamed to say that, having been trained in classical music, I used to think exactly the same thing about jazz. Jazz for me was either elevator music or random noises mixed together. Until I finally listened to it seriously and studied it. I learned more about music, harmony, music theory and playing techniques in a couple of years than in a decade of classical training and listening. Even as a very mediocre player, I can reach creative heights that I never could before, when I just played what's on the page.
Just because I did not understand what's going on because of a lack of the required background does not mean that it is not musical. Not everything is packaged in easily digestible bits, some things require more, much more work, and the reward is much better.
One thing I can assure you, despite being a pure improvisation, nothing in that performance is random or out of place.
- rStar 5y agoif you understand music the way you claim to you’re not a mediocre player, although you could be transitioning from ‘mediocre’ to ‘pretty good’ jazz is a personality thing. there are many great musicians who can’t stand jazz and don’t respect jazz players. i’m not saying that’s correct, i’m just saying that is. A range of opinions exist at all levels of the art, and since it’s art, the artists are right to have their opinions. all that being said, i’m with scoot
- the_cat_kittles 5y agoas i get older and progress as a musician, i am more aware how bs the "right to their opinions" is. you can tell how good a player is within like 2 bars most of the time. its not ambiguous, and people generally go through a similar musical maturation path. also, can you name a great instrumentalist who doesnt respect "jazz players"?
- rStar 5y agoyes, but i won’t
- the_cat_kittles 5y agoone of the more amazing comments ive seen here on hn
- rStar 5y agoJust to be clear, you’re pro allowing people to have their own opinions? Or anti?
- the_cat_kittles 5y agoi think the person who designed the juciero is a better engineer than nikola tesla
- rStar 5y agodid the person/persons who designed the juciero design anything else that would maybe support your contention? i get the point that you’re trying to make, and I appreciate that the juciero is a great example of a bs product, but I don’t take your point because I don’t think our arguments are comparable.
- rStar 5y agoi mean, that may sound flippant, but i think it’s a reasonable response to > i am more aware how bs the "right to their opinions" is
- rStar 5y agoAlso, your two bar theory is utter bs in my experience.
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- rtsil 5y agoI am a really mediocre player. But one can be a mediocre cook and understand and appreciate fine cuisine, or a couch athlete and understand the subtleties of football strategies. It's the difference between passive analysis and action. And I certainly understand if someone dislike jazz. But saying it's not music is like saying Picasso's paintings are like a three-year old's drawings.
- Aloha 5y agoMy programming skills are awful, meaning, I dont know too many languages and tools. But I understand program architecture pretty deeply, and complex systems architecture is something I deeply just grok so the analogy you make makes sense to me.
- rStar 5y agoscoot didn’t say it wasn’t music, and i’d rip him a new one, metaphorically, if he did. he said it wasn’t musical. many people say that to mean it doesn’t have a melody they like or can attach themselves to. i also think he may have meant to say use the word ‘lyrical’ which some use in the same way. i get you though.
- rStar 5y agortsil - i also very much agree with your first paragraph there.
- rStar 5y agotry listening to einstein on the beach. there’s a lot of bullshit non musicality going on in there, specifically to contrast with the more lyrical elements. that’s one of the greatest pieces of music of all time in my opinion.
- rStar 5y agopicassos paintings are like a 3 yr olds drawings. that’s why they’re so special. the wonder of a child with the experience of a man. breathtaking artist.
- tiahura 5y agoSo jazz isn’t random with rhythm, it’s pseudorandom with rhythm you can’t dance to. Still not feeling it.
- the_cat_kittles 5y agowhat you are doing is picking up a copy of hamlet in a language you cant read, looking at it for 30 seconds, and then declaring shakespeare sucks
- yesenadam 5y agoThank you, I was trying to think of a way of responding to the GP, but couldn't do as well as this! It's a very good metaphor. Perhaps even closer: "and then declaring 'Plays suck'." (Also, Martino is hardly jazz's Shakespeare.)
- rStar 5y ago>what you are doing is picking up a copy of hamlet in a language you cant read, looking at it for 30 seconds, and then declaring I don’t like this elizabethan bullshit, i find it unpleasant, and rather than waste my time on something that I feel doesn’t deserve my time, I’m gonna read some michael crighton. or maybe some dean koontz, stephen king or heck, tom clancy. it’s my life and I like what I like, and I encourage everyone to like what they like personally, and not allow themselves to be goaded into reading taming of the shrew, even if that is the best thing ole billy boy ever wrote.
- rStar 5y agoalso before all you culture warriors jump all over me for liking shakespeare, i’m talking about the version of tots as portrayed on moonlighting with bruce willis and cybil shepherd
- andrewzah 5y agoI don’t think anyone here is saying what one can and can’t like things. I personally was just responding to the idea that jazz somehow “fails the musicality test”. If you prefer classical or whatever, awesome!