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> Here's Martino playing John Coltrane's Impressions. It starts off well, but soon crosses the line into "random with rhythm". Is that just jazz? Maybe. But ar
by scoot 5y ago
> Here's Martino playing John Coltrane's Impressions.
It starts off well, but soon crosses the line into "random with rhythm". Is that just jazz? Maybe. But arguably it fails the "musicality" test.
- maroonblazer 5y agoWas that your first listen? Some music/art requires several exposures before you begin to understand or appreciate what the artist is up to.
- rStar 5y agoso, funny enough i always thought this as well. i have since stopped condescending to others about what they should or shouldn’t like.
- rtsil 5y agoI am ashamed to say that, having been trained in classical music, I used to think exactly the same thing about jazz. Jazz for me was either elevator music or random noises mixed together. Until I finally listened to it seriously and studied it. I learned more about music, harmony, music theory and playing techniques in a couple of years than in a decade of classical training and listening. Even as a very mediocre player, I can reach creative heights that I never could before, when I just played what's on the page. Just because I did not understand what's going on because of a lack of the required background does not mean that it is not musical. Not everything is packaged in easily digestible bits, some things require more, much more work, and the reward is much better. One thing I can assure you, despite being a pure improvisation, nothing in that performance is random or out of place.
- rStar 5y agoif you understand music the way you claim to you’re not a mediocre player, although you could be transitioning from ‘mediocre’ to ‘pretty good’ jazz is a personality thing. there are many great musicians who can’t stand jazz and don’t respect jazz players. i’m not saying that’s correct, i’m just saying that is. A range of opinions exist at all levels of the art, and since it’s art, the artists are right to have their opinions. all that being said, i’m with scoot
- the_cat_kittles 5y agoas i get older and progress as a musician, i am more aware how bs the "right to their opinions" is. you can tell how good a player is within like 2 bars most of the time. its not ambiguous, and people generally go through a similar musical maturation path. also, can you name a great instrumentalist who doesnt respect "jazz players"?
- rStar 5y agoyes, but i won’t
- the_cat_kittles 5y agoone of the more amazing comments ive seen here on hn
- rStar 5y agoJust to be clear, you’re pro allowing people to have their own opinions? Or anti?
- the_cat_kittles 5y agoi think the person who designed the juciero is a better engineer than nikola tesla
- rStar 5y agodid the person/persons who designed the juciero design anything else that would maybe support your contention? i get the point that you’re trying to make, and I appreciate that the juciero is a great example of a bs product, but I don’t take your point because I don’t think our arguments are comparable.
- rStar 5y agoi mean, that may sound flippant, but i think it’s a reasonable response to > i am more aware how bs the "right to their opinions" is
- tiahura 5y agoSo jazz isn’t random with rhythm, it’s pseudorandom with rhythm you can’t dance to. Still not feeling it.
- the_cat_kittles 5y agowhat you are doing is picking up a copy of hamlet in a language you cant read, looking at it for 30 seconds, and then declaring shakespeare sucks
- yesenadam 5y agoThank you, I was trying to think of a way of responding to the GP, but couldn't do as well as this! It's a very good metaphor. Perhaps even closer: "and then declaring 'Plays suck'." (Also, Martino is hardly jazz's Shakespeare.)
- rStar 5y ago>what you are doing is picking up a copy of hamlet in a language you cant read, looking at it for 30 seconds, and then declaring I don’t like this elizabethan bullshit, i find it unpleasant, and rather than waste my time on something that I feel doesn’t deserve my time, I’m gonna read some michael crighton. or maybe some dean koontz, stephen king or heck, tom clancy. it’s my life and I like what I like, and I encourage everyone to like what they like personally, and not allow themselves to be goaded into reading taming of the shrew, even if that is the best thing ole billy boy ever wrote.
- rStar 5y agoalso before all you culture warriors jump all over me for liking shakespeare, i’m talking about the version of tots as portrayed on moonlighting with bruce willis and cybil shepherd
- andrewzah 5y agoI don’t think anyone here is saying what one can and can’t like things. I personally was just responding to the idea that jazz somehow “fails the musicality test”. If you prefer classical or whatever, awesome!
- gooseyard 5y agoThere is nothing random in that solo, he never even really plays anything that a typical jazz player would consider outside playing.
- dgunay 5y agoWhile I enjoy jazz, I can at least agree that this particular example is not very listenable for the uninitiated. The pace is quick, and the backing under Pat's solo is very sparse - just some drums and a quick walking bass, the keyboardist is barely audible for half the piece. Easy to lose track of where they are in the changes unless you know the piece well. If you know a jazz standard well though, it becomes easier to appreciate where the soloist subverts or plays around the changes.
- the_cat_kittles 5y agonothing remotely random. if you want to understand, learn to play. in about 10-15 years you could look back and laugh at your comment here. since you for sure wont do that, ill just say that basically what hees doing is phrasing all over the bar. its so funny... putting every eighth note right on the money at 300 bpm, let alone with lines that good, is so hard. very few people can do it well, and millions of people aspire to.
- jseban 5y agoIt's not random at all, he's just playing the changes, it's not even outside. Random notes would sound a lot different, maybe it's just rapid stream of notes that don't sit well with you, that's the bebop sound, maybe you would appreciate (slow) blues improvisation more, or cool jazz.