3 ms·

It talks a lot about the lack of zoning, which (combined with lots of low-rise) leads to convenience stores on every corner. This makes living a lot easier (you

by wisty 5y ago

It talks a lot about the lack of zoning, which (combined with lots of low-rise) leads to convenience stores on every corner. This makes living a lot easier (you don't need to drive to get basic groceries), reduces crime (eyes on the street discourage crime) and creates a local social network (people from the street will meet there). The downside is that Japan's lack of planning makes it kind of ugly and boring. I love the utilitarian look, and a functional city is one that can have other priorities, but the physical city fabric is treated mostly as a disposable commodity.

glitchcrab 5y ago
I think the whole idea of having to drive to get groceries is a fairly uniquely American thing. Here in the UK in a medium sized town I have multiple places to buy food within walking distance, from a corner shop (small, has convenience items only), up to a full sized supermarket.
chrischen 5y ago
I actually like the organic layout of the streets. Maybe sucks for driving, but it seems to be conducive for walking because the paths radiate out of transit hubs. For a grid layout it would force people walking to take suboptimal zig-zag paths. One anecdote about the grocery stores and organic planing versus central planning: In Japan the grocery stores are often placed closer to stations and transit stops or often in the station itself, so it covers people during their commute walking back home. In San Francisco I have no idea what the logic behind the placement of grocery stores is. I bet it has something to do around the ownership of cars because they are not placed in very logical positions and all include giant parking lots despite being in the middle of the city. So this very feature resists any motion towards usage of public transit because they are never designed with transit in mind. For example my route in SF to the grocery store would be a 25 minute walk from the BART station because I have to go past my house to the middle of nowhere, and then walk 15 minutes back. To add insult to injury there is no parking for my apartment so it's like the grocery stores were designed for people who driving in from outside the city for some reason.
- SllX 5y ago
  Some neighborhoods suck at this but by and large most of the larger supermarkets are near some bus or streetcar route. If you’re looking only at BART, that’s not anywhere close to the case.
  - chrischen 5y ago
    That’s true, there is usually a bus stop but then the bus routes are much more pervasive, though less frequent. However, I consider the BART route to be a more major and busier route, so choosing to place the grocery store away from it but on a smaller transit route is still counter productive.
    - SllX 5y ago
      I think you’re discounting that bus line too much. Most of the bigger SF buses pre-COVID were easily clocking between 15-25K daily ridership. If your target market is the neighborhood you stick the store in, that is sufficient. Or look at it this way: you and I may not be privy to the logic, both Target and Whole Foods have opened up a number of stores both within and outside the vicinity of the SF BART tunnel. If they had the option to but didn’t stick some of their stores closer to BART, there’s probably a reason for it. Speaking of which, last time I was around Civic Center I saw Whole Foods was building a second Market Street location around there, due to open next year I believe?
      - chrischen 5y ago
        I meant specifically the single BART stop is a much bigger and trafficked stop than any of the other bus stops, especially the ones servicing the grocery stores. The BART stop also serves as a MUNI transfer point, and a bustling "town center" in the area. There are indeed a bunch of smaller grocery stores in the area, but the whole landscape around that area is a 2-story limited area you wouldn't notice was a transit hub if it weren't for the proselytizers and community members gathered there on a daily basis.
GuB-42 5y ago
I love the "messy" style of Tokyo. Seeing a small temple between two high rise buildings, an old run down restaurant next to a sleek modern shop, small passageways and large parks. It looks like anything can pop out of anywhere, it is a city that I enjoy walking aimlessly. And because it is so safe, you can do it without fear. Ugly is subjective, and I understand why people may think Tokyo is ugly, but it is everything but boring. What is boring for me is the stereotypical American suburbs: plenty of little houses, all the same, all with a well tended lawn. There are some really nice historical cities that are much more "beautiful" than Tokyo (ex: Prague), but they lack the diversity and sense of discovery that Tokyo has. On my first trip to Japan, I spent 3 weeks in Tokyo, and nowhere else, and I didn't feel like I even scratched the surface, there is no other city that gave me that feeling, including Paris, New-York, Hong-Kong and Seoul. Of course, all of these cities are incredibly rich and you could spend months not doing the same thing twice, but for me Tokyo is unmatched. I went back several times and it doesn't get old. Side note: As much as I love Tokyo, I wouldn't want to live there, sounds too exhausting. And like all of Japan, it is a wonderful place to be as a tourist, but like many westerners I don't think I am a good fit for the Japanese culture. Edit: There is a part of Tokyo that is not like the others: Odaiba. Unlike the rest of the city, it is sleek, futuristic, and well planned. I recommend visiting it, but for me, it is one of the most "boring" parts. Edit2: I always refer to Tokyo as a city, but it is actually a prefecture made of several small cities/wards stuck together, and they all have their own downtown. Tokyo "downtown" is the Emperor palace, which is mostly empty and inaccessible. So when you are visiting Tokyo, you are actually visiting several cities.
- ImaCake 5y ago
  In defence of suburbs - they are not all boring, although many certainly are. I live near the city centre of a small east coast Australian city and find the inner suburbs with their brick houses and well developed gardens and street trees really interesting to explore. But this contrasts with the newer suburbs further out which definitely lack that depth and character. I wonder if some of those new suburbs will improve as they age? It would be unsurprising to me if old suburbs were boring when they were new.
- m4rtink 5y ago
goodpoint 5y ago
> It talks a lot about the lack of zoning Tokyo is very much regulated based on nuisance level. Walkability is not a fluke. Nurturing the social fabric takes planning. Same for avoiding food deserts, obnoxious shopping malls, or soul-crushing sprawls. It's all by design. > The downside is that Japan's lack of planning makes it kind of ugly and boring. Huh??
- wisty 5y ago
  I mean, the streets look ugly and boring. Tokyo is the only city where I've been that only really looks good when it's night and it's covered in neon billboards. Other than billboards (and a few interesting shopfronts), streets in Tokyo are mostly a bit boring from the outside. OK, "ugly" is an exaggeration. If buildings were people, Tokyo would be like a bunch of programmers in the kind of SV office with no dress code, it's relaxed and casual but most of it is nothing you'd want to take a photograph of. It's the urban equivalent of 'bucolic'. Yes, there's a few nice buildings, but it's mostly just a functional rabble. You can't imagine a dictator making their capital look like most of Tokyo - there's no order or wow factor, it's just a bunch of buildings doing their job. Note - I quite like Tokyo (though I didn't spend that long there). I think they clearly did choose to make it more livable (which makes it exciting in other ways) than beautiful, and I think it's a good choice.
hsn915 5y ago
> The downside is that Japan's lack of planning makes it kind of ugly and boring. What? It's the opposite. It makes it interesting. Walking around and discovering places in Japan is very enjoyable. On the other hand, walking around in a North American city is quite boring unless you're walking somewhere uptown.

by wisty 5y ago

glitchcrab 5y ago

I think the whole idea of having to drive to get groceries is a fairly uniquely American thing. Here in the UK in a medium sized town I have multiple places to buy food within walking distance, from a corner shop (small, has convenience items only), up to a full sized supermarket.

chrischen 5y ago

I actually like the organic layout of the streets. Maybe sucks for driving, but it seems to be conducive for walking because the paths radiate out of transit hubs. For a grid layout it would force people walking to take suboptimal zig-zag paths. One anecdote about the grocery stores and organic planing versus central planning: In Japan the grocery stores are often placed closer to stations and transit stops or often in the station itself, so it covers people during their commute walking back home. In San Francisco I have no idea what the logic behind the placement of grocery stores is. I bet it has something to do around the ownership of cars because they are not placed in very logical positions and all include giant parking lots despite being in the middle of the city. So this very feature resists any motion towards usage of public transit because they are never designed with transit in mind. For example my route in SF to the grocery store would be a 25 minute walk from the BART station because I have to go past my house to the middle of nowhere, and then walk 15 minutes back. To add insult to injury there is no parking for my apartment so it's like the grocery stores were designed for people who driving in from outside the city for some reason.

SllX 5y ago
Some neighborhoods suck at this but by and large most of the larger supermarkets are near some bus or streetcar route. If you’re looking only at BART, that’s not anywhere close to the case.
- chrischen 5y ago
  That’s true, there is usually a bus stop but then the bus routes are much more pervasive, though less frequent. However, I consider the BART route to be a more major and busier route, so choosing to place the grocery store away from it but on a smaller transit route is still counter productive.
  - SllX 5y ago
    I think you’re discounting that bus line too much. Most of the bigger SF buses pre-COVID were easily clocking between 15-25K daily ridership. If your target market is the neighborhood you stick the store in, that is sufficient. Or look at it this way: you and I may not be privy to the logic, both Target and Whole Foods have opened up a number of stores both within and outside the vicinity of the SF BART tunnel. If they had the option to but didn’t stick some of their stores closer to BART, there’s probably a reason for it. Speaking of which, last time I was around Civic Center I saw Whole Foods was building a second Market Street location around there, due to open next year I believe?
    - chrischen 5y ago
      I meant specifically the single BART stop is a much bigger and trafficked stop than any of the other bus stops, especially the ones servicing the grocery stores. The BART stop also serves as a MUNI transfer point, and a bustling "town center" in the area. There are indeed a bunch of smaller grocery stores in the area, but the whole landscape around that area is a 2-story limited area you wouldn't notice was a transit hub if it weren't for the proselytizers and community members gathered there on a daily basis.

GuB-42 5y ago

I love the "messy" style of Tokyo. Seeing a small temple between two high rise buildings, an old run down restaurant next to a sleek modern shop, small passageways and large parks. It looks like anything can pop out of anywhere, it is a city that I enjoy walking aimlessly. And because it is so safe, you can do it without fear. Ugly is subjective, and I understand why people may think Tokyo is ugly, but it is everything but boring. What is boring for me is the stereotypical American suburbs: plenty of little houses, all the same, all with a well tended lawn. There are some really nice historical cities that are much more "beautiful" than Tokyo (ex: Prague), but they lack the diversity and sense of discovery that Tokyo has. On my first trip to Japan, I spent 3 weeks in Tokyo, and nowhere else, and I didn't feel like I even scratched the surface, there is no other city that gave me that feeling, including Paris, New-York, Hong-Kong and Seoul. Of course, all of these cities are incredibly rich and you could spend months not doing the same thing twice, but for me Tokyo is unmatched. I went back several times and it doesn't get old. Side note: As much as I love Tokyo, I wouldn't want to live there, sounds too exhausting. And like all of Japan, it is a wonderful place to be as a tourist, but like many westerners I don't think I am a good fit for the Japanese culture. Edit: There is a part of Tokyo that is not like the others: Odaiba. Unlike the rest of the city, it is sleek, futuristic, and well planned. I recommend visiting it, but for me, it is one of the most "boring" parts. Edit2: I always refer to Tokyo as a city, but it is actually a prefecture made of several small cities/wards stuck together, and they all have their own downtown. Tokyo "downtown" is the Emperor palace, which is mostly empty and inaccessible. So when you are visiting Tokyo, you are actually visiting several cities.

ImaCake 5y ago
In defence of suburbs - they are not all boring, although many certainly are. I live near the city centre of a small east coast Australian city and find the inner suburbs with their brick houses and well developed gardens and street trees really interesting to explore. But this contrasts with the newer suburbs further out which definitely lack that depth and character. I wonder if some of those new suburbs will improve as they age? It would be unsurprising to me if old suburbs were boring when they were new.
m4rtink 5y ago

goodpoint 5y ago

> It talks a lot about the lack of zoning Tokyo is very much regulated based on nuisance level. Walkability is not a fluke. Nurturing the social fabric takes planning. Same for avoiding food deserts, obnoxious shopping malls, or soul-crushing sprawls. It's all by design. > The downside is that Japan's lack of planning makes it kind of ugly and boring. Huh??

wisty 5y ago
I mean, the streets look ugly and boring. Tokyo is the only city where I've been that only really looks good when it's night and it's covered in neon billboards. Other than billboards (and a few interesting shopfronts), streets in Tokyo are mostly a bit boring from the outside. OK, "ugly" is an exaggeration. If buildings were people, Tokyo would be like a bunch of programmers in the kind of SV office with no dress code, it's relaxed and casual but most of it is nothing you'd want to take a photograph of. It's the urban equivalent of 'bucolic'. Yes, there's a few nice buildings, but it's mostly just a functional rabble. You can't imagine a dictator making their capital look like most of Tokyo - there's no order or wow factor, it's just a bunch of buildings doing their job. Note - I quite like Tokyo (though I didn't spend that long there). I think they clearly did choose to make it more livable (which makes it exciting in other ways) than beautiful, and I think it's a good choice.

hsn915 5y ago

> The downside is that Japan's lack of planning makes it kind of ugly and boring. What? It's the opposite. It makes it interesting. Walking around and discovering places in Japan is very enjoyable. On the other hand, walking around in a North American city is quite boring unless you're walking somewhere uptown.