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Martino was amazing. He had some of the wildest "lines". You can think of an improvised guitar solo as a series of small blocks/lines with breaks in between to

Martino was amazing. He had some of the wildest "lines". You can think of an improvised guitar solo as a series of small blocks/lines with breaks in between to think, or just rest your fingers. Martino's lines just keep going on and on, similar to John Coltrane. Or Allan Holdsworth. Here's Martino playing John Coltrane's Impressions. It's so tastefully played. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrrdbS2spkQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrrdbS2spkQ My personal favorite is his record Baiyina. It's very trippy, full of odd-time signatures, sitar-like drones, tabla etc. Recorded quite early in the fusion era too. The Live at Yoshi's record with Billy Hart and Joey DeFrancesco is fantastic as well. Pat Martino at the top of his game playing with a very tight rhythm section.

scoot 5y ago
> Here's Martino playing John Coltrane's Impressions. It starts off well, but soon crosses the line into "random with rhythm". Is that just jazz? Maybe. But arguably it fails the "musicality" test.
- maroonblazer 5y ago
  Was that your first listen? Some music/art requires several exposures before you begin to understand or appreciate what the artist is up to.
  - rStar 5y ago
    so, funny enough i always thought this as well. i have since stopped condescending to others about what they should or shouldn’t like.
- rtsil 5y ago
  I am ashamed to say that, having been trained in classical music, I used to think exactly the same thing about jazz. Jazz for me was either elevator music or random noises mixed together. Until I finally listened to it seriously and studied it. I learned more about music, harmony, music theory and playing techniques in a couple of years than in a decade of classical training and listening. Even as a very mediocre player, I can reach creative heights that I never could before, when I just played what's on the page. Just because I did not understand what's going on because of a lack of the required background does not mean that it is not musical. Not everything is packaged in easily digestible bits, some things require more, much more work, and the reward is much better. One thing I can assure you, despite being a pure improvisation, nothing in that performance is random or out of place.
  - rStar 5y ago
    if you understand music the way you claim to you’re not a mediocre player, although you could be transitioning from ‘mediocre’ to ‘pretty good’ jazz is a personality thing. there are many great musicians who can’t stand jazz and don’t respect jazz players. i’m not saying that’s correct, i’m just saying that is. A range of opinions exist at all levels of the art, and since it’s art, the artists are right to have their opinions. all that being said, i’m with scoot
    - the_cat_kittles 5y ago
      as i get older and progress as a musician, i am more aware how bs the "right to their opinions" is. you can tell how good a player is within like 2 bars most of the time. its not ambiguous, and people generally go through a similar musical maturation path. also, can you name a great instrumentalist who doesnt respect "jazz players"?
      - rStar 5y ago
        yes, but i won’t
        the_cat_kittles 5y ago
        one of the more amazing comments ive seen here on hn
        rStar 5y ago
        Just to be clear, you’re pro allowing people to have their own opinions? Or anti?
        the_cat_kittles 5y ago
        i think the person who designed the juciero is a better engineer than nikola tesla
- gooseyard 5y ago
  There is nothing random in that solo, he never even really plays anything that a typical jazz player would consider outside playing.
- dgunay 5y ago
  While I enjoy jazz, I can at least agree that this particular example is not very listenable for the uninitiated. The pace is quick, and the backing under Pat's solo is very sparse - just some drums and a quick walking bass, the keyboardist is barely audible for half the piece. Easy to lose track of where they are in the changes unless you know the piece well. If you know a jazz standard well though, it becomes easier to appreciate where the soloist subverts or plays around the changes.
- the_cat_kittles 5y ago
  nothing remotely random. if you want to understand, learn to play. in about 10-15 years you could look back and laugh at your comment here. since you for sure wont do that, ill just say that basically what hees doing is phrasing all over the bar. its so funny... putting every eighth note right on the money at 300 bpm, let alone with lines that good, is so hard. very few people can do it well, and millions of people aspire to.
- jseban 5y ago
  It's not random at all, he's just playing the changes, it's not even outside. Random notes would sound a lot different, maybe it's just rapid stream of notes that don't sit well with you, that's the bebop sound, maybe you would appreciate (slow) blues improvisation more, or cool jazz.

scoot 5y ago

> Here's Martino playing John Coltrane's Impressions. It starts off well, but soon crosses the line into "random with rhythm". Is that just jazz? Maybe. But arguably it fails the "musicality" test.

maroonblazer 5y ago
Was that your first listen? Some music/art requires several exposures before you begin to understand or appreciate what the artist is up to.
- rStar 5y ago
  so, funny enough i always thought this as well. i have since stopped condescending to others about what they should or shouldn’t like.
rtsil 5y ago
I am ashamed to say that, having been trained in classical music, I used to think exactly the same thing about jazz. Jazz for me was either elevator music or random noises mixed together. Until I finally listened to it seriously and studied it. I learned more about music, harmony, music theory and playing techniques in a couple of years than in a decade of classical training and listening. Even as a very mediocre player, I can reach creative heights that I never could before, when I just played what's on the page. Just because I did not understand what's going on because of a lack of the required background does not mean that it is not musical. Not everything is packaged in easily digestible bits, some things require more, much more work, and the reward is much better. One thing I can assure you, despite being a pure improvisation, nothing in that performance is random or out of place.
- rStar 5y ago
  if you understand music the way you claim to you’re not a mediocre player, although you could be transitioning from ‘mediocre’ to ‘pretty good’ jazz is a personality thing. there are many great musicians who can’t stand jazz and don’t respect jazz players. i’m not saying that’s correct, i’m just saying that is. A range of opinions exist at all levels of the art, and since it’s art, the artists are right to have their opinions. all that being said, i’m with scoot
  - the_cat_kittles 5y ago
    as i get older and progress as a musician, i am more aware how bs the "right to their opinions" is. you can tell how good a player is within like 2 bars most of the time. its not ambiguous, and people generally go through a similar musical maturation path. also, can you name a great instrumentalist who doesnt respect "jazz players"?
    - rStar 5y ago
      yes, but i won’t
      - the_cat_kittles 5y ago
        one of the more amazing comments ive seen here on hn
        rStar 5y ago
        Just to be clear, you’re pro allowing people to have their own opinions? Or anti?
        the_cat_kittles 5y ago
        i think the person who designed the juciero is a better engineer than nikola tesla
gooseyard 5y ago
There is nothing random in that solo, he never even really plays anything that a typical jazz player would consider outside playing.
dgunay 5y ago
While I enjoy jazz, I can at least agree that this particular example is not very listenable for the uninitiated. The pace is quick, and the backing under Pat's solo is very sparse - just some drums and a quick walking bass, the keyboardist is barely audible for half the piece. Easy to lose track of where they are in the changes unless you know the piece well. If you know a jazz standard well though, it becomes easier to appreciate where the soloist subverts or plays around the changes.
the_cat_kittles 5y ago
nothing remotely random. if you want to understand, learn to play. in about 10-15 years you could look back and laugh at your comment here. since you for sure wont do that, ill just say that basically what hees doing is phrasing all over the bar. its so funny... putting every eighth note right on the money at 300 bpm, let alone with lines that good, is so hard. very few people can do it well, and millions of people aspire to.
jseban 5y ago
It's not random at all, he's just playing the changes, it's not even outside. Random notes would sound a lot different, maybe it's just rapid stream of notes that don't sit well with you, that's the bebop sound, maybe you would appreciate (slow) blues improvisation more, or cool jazz.