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I will uninstall that environment and install gnome. If you want gnome to be better, then contribute to it. If you can't, detail why. Rust does not magically so

I will uninstall that environment and install gnome. If you want gnome to be better, then contribute to it. If you can't, detail why. Rust does not magically solve compatibility with the various daemons and make your UI function smoothly. We do not need Linux divide, we need Linux vision.

jjcon 5y ago
>If you want gnome to be better, then contribute to it. It doesn't work that way. The gnome maintainers have certain ideals that IMO are out of sync with most users and they are completely hostile to most PRs. I've seen tons of PRs denied with bizzare rationales and crucial functionality ripped out of gnome in their efforts to 'streamline'. This leads to everyone having a laundry list of extensions that break or stop being maintained and it just isn't ideal or user-friendly. Want to do something as simple as drag a file to your desktop? Oh you need a gnome extension for that etc etc. We need more DE choices.
easton 5y ago
I've been waiting for 10 years for someone to nut up and make GNOME something for humans to use instead of something for Linux admins. With Red Hat and Canonical both throwing weight behind it, you think that would happen, but nope. At this point I just want someone to build a desktop environment that makes people not have to think about the word "desktop environment", and nobody seems to actually give a crap about that goal. Except for Google, which is why the only Linux on the desktop product that's successful is Chrome OS.
- esarbe 5y ago
  My whole extended family runs on vanilla Fedora. Even my two surviving grandparents use Gnome as their desktop. They are perfectly happy. The only problem that arises from time to time are some weird-ass Windows applications that refuse to run with even Wine. Gnome is a smooth desktop that's easy to grasp and gets out of your way and definitively not aimed at Linux admins. For those there's tmux.
  - jjcon 5y ago
    >My whole extended family runs on vanilla Fedora. Even my two surviving grandparents use Gnome as their desktop. And then everyone started clapping
    - esarbe 5y ago
      and dancing to the rhythm, the voices were chiming and the bodies - wet with sweat - moving in harmony as the beats filled the emptiness in their lonely hearts and for a moment - a fleeting moment - they felt the joy and freedom they all had been searching for so long. Oh, sorry. You got a point?
      - jjcon 5y ago
        Its an idiom (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/and-then-the-whole-bus-clapped https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/and-then-the-whole-bus-clappe...) My point is that I can make stuff up too! If you need evidence that linux is just not ready for non-technical user prime time just take a look at the ltt video from yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M
        esarbe 5y ago
        I certainly doubt that this is evidence that linux is not ready for non-technical user prime time. Why? Because that kind of shit also happens on Windows. With administrative access, you can always kill your machine. What Linux lacks and what Windows has more then enough is informal support services. You know, that person in the family that just knows their way around computers, that does computer stuff. (Almost) every elderly person above a certain age is lost when it comes to computers. Most people alive cannot be trusted to install an application - not on Windows, not on Linux and not even on OS X (well, maybe on OS X nowadays, because you cannot install unsigned software these days) because all that software might be compromised. Every time you let a software on to your system, you can potentially brick it. And then you need a solid understanding of what's going on. For most people, computers are black boxes whose internal state is a mystery that is far too complex to be explored. They have no interest in exploring these mysteries. They have work to do; forms to fill, letters to write. And these people need the aforementioned informal support they can turn to whenever they need to diverge from the well-trodden paths. It doesn't depend on the operating system, but on the surrounding support system. That's why I don't consider that video evidence that Linux isn't ready for prime time, just as I wouldn't consider a video of someone bricking their Windows as evidence that Windows isn't ready for prime time. These people just need someone they can ask for help. For my family - that me.
syshum 5y ago
>>If you want gnome to be better, then contribute to it. Really? because gnome is one of the most hostile communities to contributors there is. So not you can not just "contribute" to it. gnome devs are very very very opinionated, they are worse than Apple. it is gnome devs way, or it is wrong... yea no thanks
- esarbe 5y ago
  Have you tried to contribute? I have in the past and never had any issues.
  - syshum 5y ago
    As long as your philosophy of what a desktop is matches exactly to what the core devs view gnome is, then I am sure your fine. But there are a reason by DE's like this new one, unity before it, and others that are either off shoots of gnome, or come from developers that are completely frustrated with the obtuse nature of the gnome team as was highlighted above, System76 ships a forked version of gnome with popos because none of their changes, their contributions, were not accepted by gnome. gnome is very opinionated about how users should use their desktops, how other software devs should write a application for gnome, and are unwilling to change in their positions even if the face wide scale community, user, or developer desire for the change. From my point of view gnome devs do not build gnome for the gnome community gnome devs build gnome for themselves, and if others use it ok, but they do not really care if they do
    - esarbe 5y ago
      > As long as your philosophy of what a desktop is matches exactly to what the core devs view gnome is, then I am sure your fine. Well, yes. They are the devs. It's their project and so they get to decide what goes in. That not different with any other project. > obtuse nature of the gnome team That has been often repeated, but has not been my experience. Yes, the Gnome developers, such as any good team - has a clear vision of what their product should be and a process they are following. Most of the time, there are excellent reasons for their decisions. Sometimes technical, sometimes pragmatic. In some cases it's just aesthetics. But that's not different from any other free/open source projects. There are dozens of projects that are forked and forked again because of aesthetic, technical, social or idealistic differences. > as was highlighted above, System76 ships a forked version of gnome with popos because none of their changes, their contributions, were not accepted by gnome. Well, that's .. good, I guess? I mean, that System76 have forked version of Gnome that confirms more to their vision of a desktop. That's the beauty of free/open software; no one is beholden to a single company calling the shots. > From my point of view gnome devs do not build gnome for the gnome community gnome devs build gnome for themselves, and if others use it ok, but they do not really care if they do I would argue that the Gnome developers very much are a part of the Gnome community. Yes, they build it for themselves, or for the companies paying them to build it. The primary commercial contributors to Gnome - companies like Endless, Redhat, Ubuntu, SuSE - are not single-mindedly interested in Gnome's market share. They have larger offerings, of which Gnome is only a part. They have nothing to gain from - say - Gentoo switching to Gnome (except maybe additional developers, but that's not a given). Why should
nhumrich 5y ago
They have tried to contribute to gnome. Non of their patches get accepted, pop_os currently ships with a fork of gnome. One of the reasons for this new DE, is because they have tried to contribute to gnome, and failed. And if they are going to have to maintain their own fork anyways, they might as well make their own thing.

jjcon 5y ago

>If you want gnome to be better, then contribute to it. It doesn't work that way. The gnome maintainers have certain ideals that IMO are out of sync with most users and they are completely hostile to most PRs. I've seen tons of PRs denied with bizzare rationales and crucial functionality ripped out of gnome in their efforts to 'streamline'. This leads to everyone having a laundry list of extensions that break or stop being maintained and it just isn't ideal or user-friendly. Want to do something as simple as drag a file to your desktop? Oh you need a gnome extension for that etc etc. We need more DE choices.

easton 5y ago

I've been waiting for 10 years for someone to nut up and make GNOME something for humans to use instead of something for Linux admins. With Red Hat and Canonical both throwing weight behind it, you think that would happen, but nope. At this point I just want someone to build a desktop environment that makes people not have to think about the word "desktop environment", and nobody seems to actually give a crap about that goal. Except for Google, which is why the only Linux on the desktop product that's successful is Chrome OS.

esarbe 5y ago
My whole extended family runs on vanilla Fedora. Even my two surviving grandparents use Gnome as their desktop. They are perfectly happy. The only problem that arises from time to time are some weird-ass Windows applications that refuse to run with even Wine. Gnome is a smooth desktop that's easy to grasp and gets out of your way and definitively not aimed at Linux admins. For those there's tmux.
- jjcon 5y ago
  >My whole extended family runs on vanilla Fedora. Even my two surviving grandparents use Gnome as their desktop. And then everyone started clapping
  - esarbe 5y ago
    and dancing to the rhythm, the voices were chiming and the bodies - wet with sweat - moving in harmony as the beats filled the emptiness in their lonely hearts and for a moment - a fleeting moment - they felt the joy and freedom they all had been searching for so long. Oh, sorry. You got a point?
    - jjcon 5y ago
      Its an idiom (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/and-then-the-whole-bus-clapped https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/and-then-the-whole-bus-clappe...) My point is that I can make stuff up too! If you need evidence that linux is just not ready for non-technical user prime time just take a look at the ltt video from yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0506yDSgU7M
      - esarbe 5y ago
        I certainly doubt that this is evidence that linux is not ready for non-technical user prime time. Why? Because that kind of shit also happens on Windows. With administrative access, you can always kill your machine. What Linux lacks and what Windows has more then enough is informal support services. You know, that person in the family that just knows their way around computers, that does computer stuff. (Almost) every elderly person above a certain age is lost when it comes to computers. Most people alive cannot be trusted to install an application - not on Windows, not on Linux and not even on OS X (well, maybe on OS X nowadays, because you cannot install unsigned software these days) because all that software might be compromised. Every time you let a software on to your system, you can potentially brick it. And then you need a solid understanding of what's going on. For most people, computers are black boxes whose internal state is a mystery that is far too complex to be explored. They have no interest in exploring these mysteries. They have work to do; forms to fill, letters to write. And these people need the aforementioned informal support they can turn to whenever they need to diverge from the well-trodden paths. It doesn't depend on the operating system, but on the surrounding support system. That's why I don't consider that video evidence that Linux isn't ready for prime time, just as I wouldn't consider a video of someone bricking their Windows as evidence that Windows isn't ready for prime time. These people just need someone they can ask for help. For my family - that me.

syshum 5y ago

>>If you want gnome to be better, then contribute to it. Really? because gnome is one of the most hostile communities to contributors there is. So not you can not just "contribute" to it. gnome devs are very very very opinionated, they are worse than Apple. it is gnome devs way, or it is wrong... yea no thanks

esarbe 5y ago
Have you tried to contribute? I have in the past and never had any issues.
- syshum 5y ago
  As long as your philosophy of what a desktop is matches exactly to what the core devs view gnome is, then I am sure your fine. But there are a reason by DE's like this new one, unity before it, and others that are either off shoots of gnome, or come from developers that are completely frustrated with the obtuse nature of the gnome team as was highlighted above, System76 ships a forked version of gnome with popos because none of their changes, their contributions, were not accepted by gnome. gnome is very opinionated about how users should use their desktops, how other software devs should write a application for gnome, and are unwilling to change in their positions even if the face wide scale community, user, or developer desire for the change. From my point of view gnome devs do not build gnome for the gnome community gnome devs build gnome for themselves, and if others use it ok, but they do not really care if they do
  - esarbe 5y ago
    > As long as your philosophy of what a desktop is matches exactly to what the core devs view gnome is, then I am sure your fine. Well, yes. They are the devs. It's their project and so they get to decide what goes in. That not different with any other project. > obtuse nature of the gnome team That has been often repeated, but has not been my experience. Yes, the Gnome developers, such as any good team - has a clear vision of what their product should be and a process they are following. Most of the time, there are excellent reasons for their decisions. Sometimes technical, sometimes pragmatic. In some cases it's just aesthetics. But that's not different from any other free/open source projects. There are dozens of projects that are forked and forked again because of aesthetic, technical, social or idealistic differences. > as was highlighted above, System76 ships a forked version of gnome with popos because none of their changes, their contributions, were not accepted by gnome. Well, that's .. good, I guess? I mean, that System76 have forked version of Gnome that confirms more to their vision of a desktop. That's the beauty of free/open software; no one is beholden to a single company calling the shots. > From my point of view gnome devs do not build gnome for the gnome community gnome devs build gnome for themselves, and if others use it ok, but they do not really care if they do I would argue that the Gnome developers very much are a part of the Gnome community. Yes, they build it for themselves, or for the companies paying them to build it. The primary commercial contributors to Gnome - companies like Endless, Redhat, Ubuntu, SuSE - are not single-mindedly interested in Gnome's market share. They have larger offerings, of which Gnome is only a part. They have nothing to gain from - say - Gentoo switching to Gnome (except maybe additional developers, but that's not a given). Why should

nhumrich 5y ago

They have tried to contribute to gnome. Non of their patches get accepted, pop_os currently ships with a fork of gnome. One of the reasons for this new DE, is because they have tried to contribute to gnome, and failed. And if they are going to have to maintain their own fork anyways, they might as well make their own thing.