5 ms·

After reading Discourses 4.1 I would like to summarize it as a defense of the institution of slavery that goes something like “Slavery is good because slaves th

After reading Discourses 4.1 I would like to summarize it as a defense of the institution of slavery that goes something like “Slavery is good because slaves themselves don’t know what it means to be free and freedom is actually a burden in the wrong mindset so it shouldn’t be for everyone.” (Ignoring that slavery, the deprivation of personhood, is an inhumane burden somehow comparable to “oh no I’m free and now I have to answer to Caesar”) Yes, it’s an odd opinion from a former slave who was maimed by a former master. Unfortunately this argument is sustained all through history and today we have people going something like “actually, working multiple minimum wage jobs and struggling to pay rent is good”.

marginalia_nu 5y ago
I'm not really passing judgement on Epictetus, merely relaying his position, as someone with a far more personal understanding of roman slavery than anyone discussing it 2000 post fact. Difficult to explain to the man how he ought to feel about events in his life we have only a sketch of an idea about. Within the framework of Stoicism, where worrying is one of the greatest evils, his argument makes every sense.
dlhavema 5y ago
If thats all a person can do would you rather them sit on a couch and live off of/depend on the state? No it's not a super fun existence and that's what my life was like right after high school in the early college years. The real problem comes in when someone in that situation gives up and does nothing.
sbacic 5y ago
I don't think Epictetus was actually defending the institution of slavery. Rather, stoic philosophy is full of these "hacks" for handling unpleasant things in your life. Many of them seem quite morbid and bizarre to the untrained mind (such as actively thinking about the death and absence of a loved one).
- bobthechef 5y ago
  I don't know about "hacks", rather observations. If most people didn't have to work to survive, they wouldn't know what to do with the time. An observation about slavery is that you've traded in the burden of responsibility that liberty introduces for the comfort of not having to worry about what to do with yourself It's easier to just go do what you're told than it is to determine what must be done. Most people actually prefer that way of living. Left to themselves, they'd either become paralyzed with indecision, or they'd piss their lives away indulging their appetites and possibly commit suicide.
  - sbacic 5y ago
    > I don't know about "hacks", rather observations. They are definitely hacks: the Enchiridion lists a few of them. Stoicism is anything if not a practical philosophy. > An observation about slavery is that you've traded in the burden of responsibility that liberty introduces for the comfort of not having to worry about what to do with yourself I interpreted it as a hedonic treadmill of responsibility; okay, you're not a slave anymore but a citizen so now you have the responsibilities of a citizen to worry about. You're no longer a citizen but a senator, so now you have senatorial responsibilities. You're no longer a senator but the emperor, so now you have to deal with all the problems an emperor needs to deal with it (as Marcus Aurelius can attest to). Moving up in the world just means that you replace one set of problems with another set of problems. Slave or emperor, it makes no difference if the problems are beyond your control.
  - catlikesshrimp 5y ago
    I prefer to start having the emperor's problems. You can keep the slave's problems if you want.
GaryTang 5y ago
> ”Unfortunately this argument is sustained all through history and today we have people going something like “actually, working multiple minimum wage jobs and struggling to pay rent is good”.” It’s much worse than that — today we have people justifying why they work for others as opposed to being entrepreneurs. “It’s not for everyone. It’s too much work. It’s all about luck. You have to be rich already. etc…”
- catlikesshrimp 5y ago
  "It’s all about luck. You have to be rich already. etc…” Yep, it is true. It is not for everyone, but not for a lack of want.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  It’s all about luck and needing to be already wealthy is true in America at least. Healthcare costs will annihilate you otherwise…

marginalia_nu 5y ago

I'm not really passing judgement on Epictetus, merely relaying his position, as someone with a far more personal understanding of roman slavery than anyone discussing it 2000 post fact. Difficult to explain to the man how he ought to feel about events in his life we have only a sketch of an idea about. Within the framework of Stoicism, where worrying is one of the greatest evils, his argument makes every sense.

dlhavema 5y ago

If thats all a person can do would you rather them sit on a couch and live off of/depend on the state? No it's not a super fun existence and that's what my life was like right after high school in the early college years. The real problem comes in when someone in that situation gives up and does nothing.

sbacic 5y ago

I don't think Epictetus was actually defending the institution of slavery. Rather, stoic philosophy is full of these "hacks" for handling unpleasant things in your life. Many of them seem quite morbid and bizarre to the untrained mind (such as actively thinking about the death and absence of a loved one).

bobthechef 5y ago
I don't know about "hacks", rather observations. If most people didn't have to work to survive, they wouldn't know what to do with the time. An observation about slavery is that you've traded in the burden of responsibility that liberty introduces for the comfort of not having to worry about what to do with yourself It's easier to just go do what you're told than it is to determine what must be done. Most people actually prefer that way of living. Left to themselves, they'd either become paralyzed with indecision, or they'd piss their lives away indulging their appetites and possibly commit suicide.
- sbacic 5y ago
  > I don't know about "hacks", rather observations. They are definitely hacks: the Enchiridion lists a few of them. Stoicism is anything if not a practical philosophy. > An observation about slavery is that you've traded in the burden of responsibility that liberty introduces for the comfort of not having to worry about what to do with yourself I interpreted it as a hedonic treadmill of responsibility; okay, you're not a slave anymore but a citizen so now you have the responsibilities of a citizen to worry about. You're no longer a citizen but a senator, so now you have senatorial responsibilities. You're no longer a senator but the emperor, so now you have to deal with all the problems an emperor needs to deal with it (as Marcus Aurelius can attest to). Moving up in the world just means that you replace one set of problems with another set of problems. Slave or emperor, it makes no difference if the problems are beyond your control.
- catlikesshrimp 5y ago
  I prefer to start having the emperor's problems. You can keep the slave's problems if you want.

GaryTang 5y ago

> ”Unfortunately this argument is sustained all through history and today we have people going something like “actually, working multiple minimum wage jobs and struggling to pay rent is good”.” It’s much worse than that — today we have people justifying why they work for others as opposed to being entrepreneurs. “It’s not for everyone. It’s too much work. It’s all about luck. You have to be rich already. etc…”

catlikesshrimp 5y ago
"It’s all about luck. You have to be rich already. etc…” Yep, it is true. It is not for everyone, but not for a lack of want.
SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
It’s all about luck and needing to be already wealthy is true in America at least. Healthcare costs will annihilate you otherwise…