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The author seems to not understand AMP at all. AMP ads on AMP pages get to render instantly because they are prerendered and only trigger impressions when they

The author seems to not understand AMP at all. AMP ads on AMP pages get to render instantly because they are prerendered and only trigger impressions when they are viewed. Non-AMP pages aren't prerendered because they would count as an impression even if they aren't viewed. You could call that a "nice comparative boost," but there is nothing sinister about that. https://amp.dev/about/ads/ https://amp.dev/about/ads/ I don't even work on the web professionally, and even I can figure this stuff out. It's really not that hard.

throwaway2048 5y ago
AMP literally has a built in 1 second delay to render outside of Google, non AMP content, that is the "Nice comparative boost". It has nothing to do with "pre rendering" its built right into the CSS.
- cerved 5y ago
  how is this done in CSS?
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    I think there is confusion about the term "rendering" here. The term "rendering" is used (a) to describe the actual translation of textual-instructive HTML/CSS/Javascript into a graphical representation within a browser window and (b) to describe stuff being loaded into a page via Javascript, most prominently ads, and more oriented towards load time ("How long until the page has finished loading" = "rendering time"). With CSS, you can define pixel-perfect areas for stuff to be rendered into, which makes the browser not having to decide on the size of the area after it has loaded further material from third-party sources. Doing so reduces "screen flickering", which is generally annoying (and the major reason why I block ads with a vengeance). This can be described as "pre-rendering" when you understand rendering as (a).
  - MichaelJanssen 5y ago
    AMP sites have a 8 seconds-delayed CSS animation on the body element, turning visibility from hidden to visible. This animation is turned off instantly (as far as I can say) by Javascript. However when you block Javascript entirely or block ampproject.org you have to endure the whole 8 seconds. I inject "body {animation: none !important}" into all pages to remedy this.
    - cerved 5y ago
      Is it possible to see this in action on desktop?
    - lern_too_spel 5y ago
      That slows down AMP pages relative to nom-AMP pages when JavaScript is disabled. This is not in the complaint.
dmitriid 5y ago
Have you followed any of the links in the article and read about all the documents unsealed in the case against Google? Or have you even read the article?
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Yes, yes, and yes. Have you? The claims quoted in this article were provided without any documents from Google, let alone a mechanism for how the non-AMP ad delay worked. I described the mechanism. What part of the description did you not understand, so I can clarify it for you? The author made the elementary mistake of blindly trusting the prosecutor without putting on his engineer hat to figure out if the prosecutor's allegations made any sense whatsoever.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    >> Have you ... and ...? >> Or have you even read the article? > Yes, yes, and yes. Not so much on that last "yes": > The author ... without putting on his engineer hat >>> Sarah Gooding Putting on her engineer hat.
    - lern_too_spel 5y ago
      I realized that after I had commented but could not correct it due to the edit button going away. HN guidelines require you to "respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
putlake 5y ago
> AMP ads on AMP pages get to render instantly because they are prerendered and only trigger impressions when they are viewed. Non-AMP pages aren't prerendered because they would count as an impression even if they aren't viewed. This is not even wrong. I'm sorry; I never post just to criticize someone's comment. But yours was the top comment on the page and was, in addition to being wrong, condescending to an author who is clearly very knowledgeable (I say that as a web publisher who has monetized with ads for more than a decade). From the article: > [The recent DOJ lawsuit against Google] claims that Google falsely told publishers that adopting AMP would enhance load times, even though the company’s employees knew that it only improved the “median of performance” and actually loaded slower than some speed optimization techniques publishers had been using. It alleges that AMP pages brought 40% less revenue to publishers. The complaint states that AMP’s speed benefits “were also at least partly a result of Google’s throttling. Google throttles the load time of non-AMP ads by giving them artificial one-second delays in order to give Google AMP a ‘nice comparative boost.‘” This is a very big deal and a huge trust buster, and a giant dick move by Google against publishers. It's literally an evil act by a company that said Don't be Evil. The article is spot on that AMP has irreparably damaged publishers' trust.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  It decreases load times for sites pulling in 20+ third party scripts. The purpose of AMP is to cut away that hot garbage. Sadly it hasn't worked at shaming these poorly designed sites into correcting their ways.
  - rrix2 5y ago
    and what the lawsuit is alleging is that the opposite is also true: that AMP increased the load time for sites which load advertisements faster than AMP ads and "cut away that hot garbage" themselve, by introducing a preload delay for content to render
  - codyogden 5y ago
    > The purpose of AMP The stated purpose of AMP was to cut down load times. Does it do that? Sure. But the class action suit alleges that the intended purpose of AMP was to interfere with header bidding for ad placements in order to abuse Google’s monopoly power.
kall 5y ago
I have only a basic understanding of online advertising. Is that really how AMP ads work? If they are pre-rendered before the user clicks the link, when does the auction happen? Does it do a speculative auction when you load the search results page? It so, that is an incredibly unfair advantage for google. Or do you just mean that all possible ad creatives are server-side-rendered, so to speak, and kept ready in a google cache? Edit: oh probably pre rendered by the user browser in the background. In that case any ad could still trigger it‘s impression with a viewport listener, if that‘s what google needed them to do.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  > In that case any ad could still trigger it‘s impression with a viewport listener, if that‘s what google needed them to do. With AMP, Google (and Microsoft and the other companies running AMP caches) can verify that the ad doesn't trigger an impression until viewed, which they need to do because they serve it themselves. https://developers.google.com/authorized-buyers/rtb/amp-ads https://developers.google.com/authorized-buyers/rtb/amp-ads > Does it do a speculative auction when you load the search results page? Yes. > It so, that is an incredibly unfair advantage for google. Why would it be? Anybody can participate in the auction.
  - ec109685 5y ago
    That’s not how it works at all. As you can see with the link you included, things like client IP address is sent along with the bid request. This happens after a user opens an amp article, not before. The one second delay is so that ads that aren’t sandboxed and loaded client side, won’t impact the reading experience. For ads that are loaded server side, they can ensure the quality is high enough that they can be displayed while content is rendering.
    - lern_too_spel 5y ago
      > The one second delay is so that ads that aren’t sandboxed and loaded client side, won’t impact the reading experience. Where does it say that? The delay is from the ad spot not even being available to bid on until the user opens the article, some timeout to receive all the bids, and then some time to fetch the ad from the winner's ad server instead of returning the ad content immediately after the winner has been determined. > For ads that are loaded server side, they can ensure the quality is high enough For ads that are loaded server side, they can just validate against the spec to ensure that it is safe for the AMP cache to serve inside the article.

throwaway2048 5y ago

AMP literally has a built in 1 second delay to render outside of Google, non AMP content, that is the "Nice comparative boost". It has nothing to do with "pre rendering" its built right into the CSS.

cerved 5y ago
how is this done in CSS?
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  I think there is confusion about the term "rendering" here. The term "rendering" is used (a) to describe the actual translation of textual-instructive HTML/CSS/Javascript into a graphical representation within a browser window and (b) to describe stuff being loaded into a page via Javascript, most prominently ads, and more oriented towards load time ("How long until the page has finished loading" = "rendering time"). With CSS, you can define pixel-perfect areas for stuff to be rendered into, which makes the browser not having to decide on the size of the area after it has loaded further material from third-party sources. Doing so reduces "screen flickering", which is generally annoying (and the major reason why I block ads with a vengeance). This can be described as "pre-rendering" when you understand rendering as (a).
- MichaelJanssen 5y ago
  AMP sites have a 8 seconds-delayed CSS animation on the body element, turning visibility from hidden to visible. This animation is turned off instantly (as far as I can say) by Javascript. However when you block Javascript entirely or block ampproject.org you have to endure the whole 8 seconds. I inject "body {animation: none !important}" into all pages to remedy this.
  - cerved 5y ago
    Is it possible to see this in action on desktop?
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    That slows down AMP pages relative to nom-AMP pages when JavaScript is disabled. This is not in the complaint.

dmitriid 5y ago

Have you followed any of the links in the article and read about all the documents unsealed in the case against Google? Or have you even read the article?

lern_too_spel 5y ago
Yes, yes, and yes. Have you? The claims quoted in this article were provided without any documents from Google, let alone a mechanism for how the non-AMP ad delay worked. I described the mechanism. What part of the description did you not understand, so I can clarify it for you? The author made the elementary mistake of blindly trusting the prosecutor without putting on his engineer hat to figure out if the prosecutor's allegations made any sense whatsoever.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  >> Have you ... and ...? >> Or have you even read the article? > Yes, yes, and yes. Not so much on that last "yes": > The author ... without putting on his engineer hat >>> Sarah Gooding Putting on her engineer hat.
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    I realized that after I had commented but could not correct it due to the edit button going away. HN guidelines require you to "respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

putlake 5y ago

> AMP ads on AMP pages get to render instantly because they are prerendered and only trigger impressions when they are viewed. Non-AMP pages aren't prerendered because they would count as an impression even if they aren't viewed. This is not even wrong. I'm sorry; I never post just to criticize someone's comment. But yours was the top comment on the page and was, in addition to being wrong, condescending to an author who is clearly very knowledgeable (I say that as a web publisher who has monetized with ads for more than a decade). From the article: > [The recent DOJ lawsuit against Google] claims that Google falsely told publishers that adopting AMP would enhance load times, even though the company’s employees knew that it only improved the “median of performance” and actually loaded slower than some speed optimization techniques publishers had been using. It alleges that AMP pages brought 40% less revenue to publishers. The complaint states that AMP’s speed benefits “were also at least partly a result of Google’s throttling. Google throttles the load time of non-AMP ads by giving them artificial one-second delays in order to give Google AMP a ‘nice comparative boost.‘” This is a very big deal and a huge trust buster, and a giant dick move by Google against publishers. It's literally an evil act by a company that said Don't be Evil. The article is spot on that AMP has irreparably damaged publishers' trust.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
It decreases load times for sites pulling in 20+ third party scripts. The purpose of AMP is to cut away that hot garbage. Sadly it hasn't worked at shaming these poorly designed sites into correcting their ways.
- rrix2 5y ago
  and what the lawsuit is alleging is that the opposite is also true: that AMP increased the load time for sites which load advertisements faster than AMP ads and "cut away that hot garbage" themselve, by introducing a preload delay for content to render
- codyogden 5y ago
  > The purpose of AMP The stated purpose of AMP was to cut down load times. Does it do that? Sure. But the class action suit alleges that the intended purpose of AMP was to interfere with header bidding for ad placements in order to abuse Google’s monopoly power.

kall 5y ago

I have only a basic understanding of online advertising. Is that really how AMP ads work? If they are pre-rendered before the user clicks the link, when does the auction happen? Does it do a speculative auction when you load the search results page? It so, that is an incredibly unfair advantage for google. Or do you just mean that all possible ad creatives are server-side-rendered, so to speak, and kept ready in a google cache? Edit: oh probably pre rendered by the user browser in the background. In that case any ad could still trigger it‘s impression with a viewport listener, if that‘s what google needed them to do.

lern_too_spel 5y ago
> In that case any ad could still trigger it‘s impression with a viewport listener, if that‘s what google needed them to do. With AMP, Google (and Microsoft and the other companies running AMP caches) can verify that the ad doesn't trigger an impression until viewed, which they need to do because they serve it themselves. https://developers.google.com/authorized-buyers/rtb/amp-ads https://developers.google.com/authorized-buyers/rtb/amp-ads > Does it do a speculative auction when you load the search results page? Yes. > It so, that is an incredibly unfair advantage for google. Why would it be? Anybody can participate in the auction.
- ec109685 5y ago
  That’s not how it works at all. As you can see with the link you included, things like client IP address is sent along with the bid request. This happens after a user opens an amp article, not before. The one second delay is so that ads that aren’t sandboxed and loaded client side, won’t impact the reading experience. For ads that are loaded server side, they can ensure the quality is high enough that they can be displayed while content is rendering.
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    > The one second delay is so that ads that aren’t sandboxed and loaded client side, won’t impact the reading experience. Where does it say that? The delay is from the ad spot not even being available to bid on until the user opens the article, some timeout to receive all the bids, and then some time to fetch the ad from the winner's ad server instead of returning the ad content immediately after the winner has been determined. > For ads that are loaded server side, they can ensure the quality is high enough For ads that are loaded server side, they can just validate against the spec to ensure that it is safe for the AMP cache to serve inside the article.