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you raise some good points. For example the Puritans caused as much suffering for the English under Cromwell as the Church of England did to the Puritans in ret

you raise some good points. For example the Puritans caused as much suffering for the English under Cromwell as the Church of England did to the Puritans in return...but I feel something is missing from your discussion. I am not claiming there is something in the bible that made protestants more peaceful. I'm not saying they weren't as prone to religious fervor as others. I'm saying it was something in their attitude of intellectualism, and their refusal to defer to authority that allowed humanity to move forward. Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. This isn't a coincidence. Only after the French revolution and the rise of secularism did the former Catholic world begin to take part in the scientific revolution. Also, because of the persecution in England and elsewhere, many fled to America and while one can always find examples to the contrary, the fact remains that the separation of church and state in America was pretty much welcomed by all, and it was specifically because of what the people who lived there had learned about religious persecution and how those in power use such persecution for their own ends. In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it. Clearly extraordinary circumstances existed at the time for this to occur, and this needs to be explained.

qwytw 5y ago
> Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. Again I'm not sure that's accurate, was Britain really that much ahead before the second half of the 18th century? Copernicus, Galileo, Pascal, Torricelli, Lavoisier, Volta all had a Catholic background. Even the steam turbine was (according to some) invented in Italy by Giovanni Branca in 1645, however since there was no easily accessible coal in Italy the industrial revolution could not have started regardless of their religion. While in general I don't want to fully dismiss the whole concept of 'protestant work ethic', the success of England, the Netherlands (the low countries were already the most prosperous region in Europe before the reformation even started) and later Prussia can be better explained by their political, legal & economic systems, their geographic location and (in the case of England) access to natural resources rather than their religion. While I would concede that protestantism had a generally non negative effect on work ethic. Positive attitude towards intellectualism is not something unique to protestants. The tradition of what we consider to 'modern intellectualism' was born in renaissance Italy. It was continuously developed by catholic philosophers, scientists and organizations (e.g. the Jesuits) over the upcoming centuries. While dogmatism and negative attitude towards scientific progress was widespread in catholic countries, the Puritans(again) (and most hardline protestants) were generally anti-intellectual. However one thing protestants were ahead in was literacy, while generally it was not necessarily promoted due to their positive attitude towards intellectualism (it's not like devout protestants really need to read anything besides the bible and business ledgers) it overall still likely had a significant positive effect. > In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it The political elite of the US during the War of Independence was remarkably irreligious (at least compared to the previous and future generations). Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, John Adams etc. were all either outright critical of organized religion or basically just ignored it. Americans generally became more religious in the first half of the 19th century (as a result of the "Second Great Awakening").

qwytw 5y ago

> Almost all Scientific and engineering breakthroughs in that period happened in Scotland, Netherlands, England, and Germany. Again I'm not sure that's accurate, was Britain really that much ahead before the second half of the 18th century? Copernicus, Galileo, Pascal, Torricelli, Lavoisier, Volta all had a Catholic background. Even the steam turbine was (according to some) invented in Italy by Giovanni Branca in 1645, however since there was no easily accessible coal in Italy the industrial revolution could not have started regardless of their religion. While in general I don't want to fully dismiss the whole concept of 'protestant work ethic', the success of England, the Netherlands (the low countries were already the most prosperous region in Europe before the reformation even started) and later Prussia can be better explained by their political, legal & economic systems, their geographic location and (in the case of England) access to natural resources rather than their religion. While I would concede that protestantism had a generally non negative effect on work ethic. Positive attitude towards intellectualism is not something unique to protestants. The tradition of what we consider to 'modern intellectualism' was born in renaissance Italy. It was continuously developed by catholic philosophers, scientists and organizations (e.g. the Jesuits) over the upcoming centuries. While dogmatism and negative attitude towards scientific progress was widespread in catholic countries, the Puritans(again) (and most hardline protestants) were generally anti-intellectual. However one thing protestants were ahead in was literacy, while generally it was not necessarily promoted due to their positive attitude towards intellectualism (it's not like devout protestants really need to read anything besides the bible and business ledgers) it overall still likely had a significant positive effect. > In fact, such a situation, with an entire country of deeply religious people all agreeing to restrict the power of religion, is so extraordinary that you can't simply dismiss it The political elite of the US during the War of Independence was remarkably irreligious (at least compared to the previous and future generations). Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Hamilton, John Adams etc. were all either outright critical of organized religion or basically just ignored it. Americans generally became more religious in the first half of the 19th century (as a result of the "Second Great Awakening").