5 ms·

Renewables got cheaper to the point where it's not competitive Counter-argument: Wind and sun are unreliable Counter-counter-argument: Why not build 10x the a

by throwaway821909 5y ago

Renewables got cheaper to the point where it's not competitive Counter-argument: Wind and sun are unreliable Counter-counter-argument: Why not build 10x the amount of wind and solar if it's so cheap, and automatically break the circuit when not needed?

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
You can build even 100x the amount of solar, but the sun will set anyway.
- Krasnol 5y ago
  I don't understand how this argument got so popular even though the ignorance is so obvious. Nobody builds ONLY solar or ONLY wind or ONLY hydro. Why should you? Please stop repeating this...it's ridiculous.
- rhacker 5y ago
  So if you plan on building 4KW solar, and then decide to do 100X that, you can generate ~1800KWH per day (400 * 5 hours per day of ideal sun * fudge factor). If you have the battery storage for that you can probably get through 66 days from one sunny day. The cost would be super prohibitive too, but not everyone needs 100X out there solar to get through some rough days. My personal plan is 30KW (over the next few years) so I can get through like 4 days. And heck, a stormy day will still generate enough electricity.
fastball 5y ago
Your counter-counter-argument requires a lot of energy storage, which is certainly not a solved problem.
natmaka 5y ago
Even better: when produced energy is not needed... store it, in order to use it when production is insufficient.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  It is those battery costs that make solar lose the price advantage, so yeah, it's a problem.
  - naasking 5y ago
    Solar is now so much cheaper than everything else that I find your claim hard to believe.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      Solar could be free, and still the battery costs would be prohibitive. In terms of "hard to believe", ask yourself why countries have not managed to roll out storage capacity to match the solar capacity? It's because solar is relying on fossil fuels or nuclear or hydro to be there when it's dark.
      - natmaka 5y ago
        Indeed, because building wind/solar/biomass/... production units took most of the investment capacity, while coping for variability was cheap because we already had thermal (fossil fueled) powerplants. Those are aging up and more and more expensive to use due to carbon taxes, therefore storage-related projects get boosted. H2 (and fuel cells), thermal and kinetic storage... are getting traction. The sheer amount of electricity produced by intermittent renewables (solar & wind) while nobody wants it grows. Many markets have more and more negative prices timeframes, where the producer is ready to pay in order to get rid of it (gridpower network stability implies "production == consumption", any over/under-load is dangerous for it). However electricity prices are way, way up during under-production periods. This creates an already huge and growing incentive for storage. Also add electric vehicles batteries (and, maybe one day, home batteries) which will more and more be usable to store overproduction thanks to smartgrid and various tricks ( such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid). The landscape is quickly (relatively to its huge inertia) changing.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

You can build even 100x the amount of solar, but the sun will set anyway.

Krasnol 5y ago
I don't understand how this argument got so popular even though the ignorance is so obvious. Nobody builds ONLY solar or ONLY wind or ONLY hydro. Why should you? Please stop repeating this...it's ridiculous.
rhacker 5y ago
So if you plan on building 4KW solar, and then decide to do 100X that, you can generate ~1800KWH per day (400 * 5 hours per day of ideal sun * fudge factor). If you have the battery storage for that you can probably get through 66 days from one sunny day. The cost would be super prohibitive too, but not everyone needs 100X out there solar to get through some rough days. My personal plan is 30KW (over the next few years) so I can get through like 4 days. And heck, a stormy day will still generate enough electricity.

fastball 5y ago

Your counter-counter-argument requires a lot of energy storage, which is certainly not a solved problem.

natmaka 5y ago

Even better: when produced energy is not needed... store it, in order to use it when production is insufficient.

rsj_hn 5y ago
It is those battery costs that make solar lose the price advantage, so yeah, it's a problem.
- naasking 5y ago
  Solar is now so much cheaper than everything else that I find your claim hard to believe.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    Solar could be free, and still the battery costs would be prohibitive. In terms of "hard to believe", ask yourself why countries have not managed to roll out storage capacity to match the solar capacity? It's because solar is relying on fossil fuels or nuclear or hydro to be there when it's dark.
    - natmaka 5y ago
      Indeed, because building wind/solar/biomass/... production units took most of the investment capacity, while coping for variability was cheap because we already had thermal (fossil fueled) powerplants. Those are aging up and more and more expensive to use due to carbon taxes, therefore storage-related projects get boosted. H2 (and fuel cells), thermal and kinetic storage... are getting traction. The sheer amount of electricity produced by intermittent renewables (solar & wind) while nobody wants it grows. Many markets have more and more negative prices timeframes, where the producer is ready to pay in order to get rid of it (gridpower network stability implies "production == consumption", any over/under-load is dangerous for it). However electricity prices are way, way up during under-production periods. This creates an already huge and growing incentive for storage. Also add electric vehicles batteries (and, maybe one day, home batteries) which will more and more be usable to store overproduction thanks to smartgrid and various tricks ( such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid). The landscape is quickly (relatively to its huge inertia) changing.