4 ms·

If you want to see true décentralisation, look to Europe, especially Germany, Switzerland etc., but also the EU And for an ideology that actually build decentr

If you want to see true décentralisation, look to Europe, especially Germany, Switzerland etc., but also the EU And for an ideology that actually build decentralised but just systems, I am strangely enamored by anarchists. They(except Ancaps) have been working at this for about 1-2 centuries and it's a hard problem (and not all anarchists are trying to be smart about it). The only way that I can see to make it work (in theory) is to find a way to do confederations of confederations that keep everything more or less manageable with human interpersonal relationships and "sane" local rules on each layer and delegate global things upwards, with shortcuts and balancing mechanisms that make sure the state apparatus stays decentralised, nimble and controlled bottom up, not too down. I think Switzerland and Norway as well as some first Nations are closest to this, but I hope we'll all get there one day.

pphysch 5y ago
Interesting interpretation. In general, Northern Europe is far less individualistic[1] than USA. Don't mistake deeply entrenched (perhaps invisible) traditional hierarchies for the lack thereof. I view anarchism as another expression of classical liberalism, with the same structural faults re: decentralization, etc. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
- igorkraw 5y ago
  The Jante law, tall poppy syndrome etc. is quite overblown in my personal experience, but it might have been a thing in prior times. But in modern Germany and Switzerland (where I lived from) I think the systems simply recognises more that the individual is nothing without the collective and tries to put systems into place that make sure single individuals can't co-opt the system (nothing is perfect on this of course, and rent seeking, elite populists ala Trump stirring sentiments etc all exists). It's the difference between positive and negative freedoms (I think in germany and especially the nordics poor people are much more able to chase their happiness than in the US,in the sense a decent life without homelessnes, fear of bankruptcy due to disease and horrible working conditions is possible, not if you want to become a millionaire). And anarchism was literally born out od rejection of classical liberalism and "classical liberals" don't really like them https://mises.org/library/are-libertarians-anarchists https://mises.org/library/are-libertarians-anarchists. (not a good source on anarchism, but just to give evidence that classical liberalism/libertarians and anarchists are not the same. There are socialist libertarians who are closer to anarchists but I think most libertarians would not align with them)
  - pphysch 5y ago
    European collectivism definitely took a hit during the Cold War (collectivist = "communist"), but it's still there and will see a resurgence in the coming decades. > And anarchism was literally born out od rejection of classical liberalism and "classical liberals" don't really like them This doesn't quite align with what I've learned. Nonetheless, sectarian infighting between liberal ideologies is indeed a common theme.

pphysch 5y ago

Interesting interpretation. In general, Northern Europe is far less individualistic[1] than USA. Don't mistake deeply entrenched (perhaps invisible) traditional hierarchies for the lack thereof. I view anarchism as another expression of classical liberalism, with the same structural faults re: decentralization, etc. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

igorkraw 5y ago
The Jante law, tall poppy syndrome etc. is quite overblown in my personal experience, but it might have been a thing in prior times. But in modern Germany and Switzerland (where I lived from) I think the systems simply recognises more that the individual is nothing without the collective and tries to put systems into place that make sure single individuals can't co-opt the system (nothing is perfect on this of course, and rent seeking, elite populists ala Trump stirring sentiments etc all exists). It's the difference between positive and negative freedoms (I think in germany and especially the nordics poor people are much more able to chase their happiness than in the US,in the sense a decent life without homelessnes, fear of bankruptcy due to disease and horrible working conditions is possible, not if you want to become a millionaire). And anarchism was literally born out od rejection of classical liberalism and "classical liberals" don't really like them https://mises.org/library/are-libertarians-anarchists https://mises.org/library/are-libertarians-anarchists. (not a good source on anarchism, but just to give evidence that classical liberalism/libertarians and anarchists are not the same. There are socialist libertarians who are closer to anarchists but I think most libertarians would not align with them)
- pphysch 5y ago
  European collectivism definitely took a hit during the Cold War (collectivist = "communist"), but it's still there and will see a resurgence in the coming decades. > And anarchism was literally born out od rejection of classical liberalism and "classical liberals" don't really like them This doesn't quite align with what I've learned. Nonetheless, sectarian infighting between liberal ideologies is indeed a common theme.